20mph speed limits in Wales

bikeman01 wrote:

My mother lives in Swansea, Wales. Here is her take on 20mph.

- 20mph through villages, housing estates, schools etc is sensible.

- Swansea has lots of main roads, some dual carriageways. All are now 20mph. It's very difficult to keep to 20 on these roads without looking consistently at your speedo.

- Plenty of aggression from frustrated drivers and overtaking in inappropriate places

- Some people are driving at 15mph.

- Lots of rat running down side streets.

- Very difficult to pull out of side roads when theres a constant stream of 20mph cars bumper to bumper.

Sounds like the expected shit show to me.

I think every villiage in Oxfordshire is already 20mph and it's not caused an uproar because most accept that it is being used appropriately. But this blanket change from 30 to 20 in Wales is madness.

That doesn't seem to match up with the data. From https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/

Quote:

When the Senedd voted in favour in July 2022, Wales became the first UK nation to pass legislation to lower the default national speed limit on residential roads and busy pedestrian streets from 30mph to 20mph. The new speed limit came into force on Sunday 17 September 2023.

The new legislation is not a blanket speed limit on all roads, it simply changes the default speed limit on restricted roads from 30mph to 20mph. Highway authorities, who know their area best, engaged with their local communities to decide which roads should remain at 30mph.

Exceptions to 20mph default speed limits

This map shows:

a. roads remaining at 30mph speed limit (‘exceptions’)

Some highway authorities have also shown:  

b. roads that are currently 30mph by Order and will stay at 30mph

c. roads that are 20mph by virtue of legislation (restricted roads)

d. roads that are 20mph by Order

I dont go there myself often but I can assure you there are a lot more roads in and around Swansea than the few exceptions that that map shows. 

Anyway she is 85. I expect she thinks everywhere is now 20. 

bikeman01 wrote:

I dont go there myself often but I can assure you there are a lot more roads in and around Swansea than the few exceptions that that map shows. 

Anyway she is 85. I expect she thinks everywhere is now 20. 

I can't add any local knowledge to that, but it sounds peculiar that the map specifically for that purpose would be incorrect.

I think bikeman's point is that the excepted roads shown in the Swansea area are a very small proportion of the roads - so many others are 20mph. Unfortunately (but perhaps unsurprisingly) it seems the map is not complete - only some highways authorities have marked various categories of road. 

However, I still don't get the speedo obsession. Ok, there might be a small adjustment period as you acclimatise to what the reduced speed looks/feels/sounds like. But if you weren't previously glued to your speedo to ensure you were doing 30, you won't need to be glued to it now to do 20.  

quiff wrote:

I think bikeman's point is that the excepted roads shown in the Swansea area are a very small proportion of the roads - so many others are 20mph. Unfortunately (but perhaps unsurprisingly) it seems the map is not complete - only some highways authorities have marked various categories of road. 

However, I still don't get the speedo obsession. Ok, there might be a small adjustment period as you acclimatise to what the reduced speed looks/feels/sounds like. But if you weren't previously glued to your speedo to ensure you were doing 30, you won't need to be glued to it now to do 20.  

It just seems to me that some of the complaints aren't relevant as a dual carriageway is hardly a residential road. Is she misinformed about the scheme (likely) or is it that the Senedd had been overzealous and not entirely truthful?

There are definitely some questionable examples. E.g. in my neck of the woods, this stretch of road recently dropped to 20mph. I don't particularly mind, but it's not residential, and until a couple of years ago the speed limit was 40 (then dropped to 30 when surrounding roads became subject to one of the pilot 20 zones), so I can see why some might think it's unnecessarily low.    

quiff wrote:

There are definitely some questionable examples. E.g. in my neck of the woods, this stretch of road recently dropped to 20mph. I don't particularly mind, but it's not residential, and until a couple of years ago the speed limit was 40 (then dropped to 30 when surrounding roads became subject to one of the pilot 20 zones), so I can see why some might think it's unnecessarily low.    

With that amount of traffic on it, 20mph might be an aspiration

Absolutely - I suspect the 20 limit may be partly to improve flow.   

quiff wrote:

There are definitely some questionable examples. E.g. in my neck of the woods, this stretch of road recently dropped to 20mph. I don't particularly mind, but it's not residential, and until a couple of years ago the speed limit was 40 (then dropped to 30 when surrounding roads became subject to one of the pilot 20 zones), so I can see why some might think it's unnecessarily low.    

I see plenty of pedestrians on a pavement directly adjacent to the roadway with no protection, so yeah, 20 MPH seems appropriate.

Maybe the Welsh government could promise drivers they'll raise it to 25 MPH if drivers can go two years without killing anyone.

On the right side I see a barrier. On the left, none, but lets see the stats on cars that lost control on this arrow straight piece of road which resulted in injury to pedestrians and then compare it to the casualties caused by pedestrians stepping out into the road without looking. 

Most of Western Avenue, Cardiff - that road - is marked as a Stage 3 exception, with a TRO in preparation.

The only bit to remain at 20mph looks like being the short stretch which passes the University and the Cathedral.

My general view of 20mph is - yes inside community boundaries, but consider classified roads (As and Bs) for an exception.

Yeah, that's why I'm confused. The 20mph section of Western Ave is very short (circled below) and, because of the river, public parks etc in the area (and therefore lack of surrounding roads), it seems to me you'd have to take quite a long detour to avoid it. But I'm sure I'm guilty of just thinking of routes I take. Just because I don't have the imagination to do it, doesn't mean others aren't!    

Dual carriageways have definitely had their speeds reduced in Cardiff.

Western Avenue in Cardiff is now a mixture of 20 and 30 mph limits. Previously it was mainly 40.

Rich_cb wrote:

Dual carriageways have definitely had their speeds reduced in Cardiff. Western Avenue in Cardiff is now a mixture of 20 and 30 mph limits. Previously it was mainly 40.

That's curious as I wouldn't think that a dual carriageway would be counted as a residential road or busy pedestrian street. I wonder what the reasoning behind that is?

Rich is talking about the same road I posted above. There is a University on that stretch, and it's congested, but it isn't an obvious candidate for 20mph IMO. 

quiff wrote:

Rich is talking about the same road I posted above. There is a University on that stretch, and it's congested, but it isn't an obvious candidate for 20mph IMO. 

Maybe it's the foot traffic from the University that has earnt it a lower speed limit

There's already a bridge and 2 tunnels and a light controlled crossing.

After the university it's a pure dual carriageway, now at 30 mph.

It's not just the 20mph limits that were changed.

Rich_cb wrote:

There's already a bridge and 2 tunnels and a light controlled crossing. After the university it's a pure dual carriageway, now at 30 mph. It's not just the 20mph limits that were changed.

Well, I can't add any local knowledge to this but I'm quite happy for as many roads as possible to be 20mph - YMMV.

The problem is that 20mph limits on that particular road lead to more traffic on nearby residential roads including mine.

If the dual carriageway is busy and you can only travel at 20mph on it why not switch to the residential roads which have the same limit.

In general I'm a supporter of the 20mph limits and my road has had one for quite a while.

The default limit switch appears to have had quite a few unintended consequences though.

Rich_cb wrote:

The problem is that 20mph limits on that particular road lead to more traffic on nearby residential roads including mine.

If the dual carriageway is busy and you can only travel at 20mph on it why not switch to the residential roads which have the same limit.

In general I'm a supporter of the 20mph limits and my road has had one for quite a while.

The default limit switch appears to have had quite a few unintended consequences though.

I'm not denying your experience, but I'm a bit surprised to hear that. Can't think of obvious sensible alternatives to Western Ave. But maybe satnavs do. Did you not get displaced traffic before when the limit was 30, but congestion meant nobody was even doing 20?

If you look at where the A48 comes round to join Western avenue there's a large residential area bounded by those roads and Llandaf/Cardiff road.

At peak times, when there is significant congestion, people have always cut through that area but now far more people are cutting through at all times, the speed limits are largely the same so it's now probably quicker to cut through the residential areas than follow the arterial roads. I suspect this is Sat Nav driven but it's definitely got worse since the speed limit changes.

quiff wrote:

I'm not denying your experience, but I'm a bit surprised to hear that. Can't think of obvious sensible alternatives to Western Ave. But maybe satnavs do. Did you not get displaced traffic before when the limit was 30, but congestion meant nobody was even doing 20?

A lot of the comments here are from the armchair warriors adopting the 30mph bad, 20mph good, just like I expect decisions are made by local authorities.

Change usually has unexpected consequences and these shouldn't be dismissed just because they arent expected.

In the case of rat running, I would have thought this would have been expected and obvious. Think about it, the enforcement of speed limits is typically on main roads, if these are reduced to 20mph along with neighbouring residential areas, drivers will try to avoid them by rat running through the residential areas which they know are unlilkely to have enforcement and they can exceed 20mph. Yes rat running happened when all roads were 30mph but there was little advantage to do so since you couldnt realistically exceed 30mph on residential streets. The situation now is reversed.

It is also the case that many main roads within Swansea are very congested and there is now every chance of making better progress by cutting though residential areas. Why bother joining the queue if you know it will never speed up.

Rich_cb wrote:

The problem is that 20mph limits on that particular road lead to more traffic on nearby residential roads including mine. If the dual carriageway is busy and you can only travel at 20mph on it why not switch to the residential roads which have the same limit. In general I'm a supporter of the 20mph limits and my road has had one for quite a while. The default limit switch appears to have had quite a few unintended consequences though.

You need an LTN !

I think that it will be a year before we can judge TBH - look for a monitoring report in September 2024.

I wish!

Unfortunately a lot of the roads were LTN'ed before LTNs were invented and mine wasn't one of them!

The Western Way had been 30mph for awhile and is mainly single carriageway albeit with two lanes of traffic each direction. So they decided not to exempt it which would be the local council's decision. 

As for the knock-on for Eastern Way, I'm guessing they didn't want 40mph traffic suddenly encountering 20mph traffic so dropped that one, which again sounds more like the local councils decision rather then the Senedd's. As it is almost a motorway with an hard shoulder and slip roads, it is a poor decision. 

hawkinspeter wrote:

quiff wrote:

Rich is talking about the same road I posted above. There is a University on that stretch, and it's congested, but it isn't an obvious candidate for 20mph IMO. 

Maybe it's the foot traffic from the University that has earnt it a lower speed limit

Drunk students unable to look up from their phones when crossing the road? Changing the enviroment is easier than tacking the problem.

And, and they didn't put the bloody signs up until after they had installed and activated the flippin traffic camera. Hence for a short while that camera became the most lucrative moneyspinner for any police force in the UK (~4000 people in a few days)

Throwing no shade on your mum!

However:

Getting used to a dual carriageway being 20mph instead of 30mph (yes, I know the better solution to guide speed choice would be to rebuild it single-lane with curves, trees etc.) is just "change", no?

Same goes for "having to concentrate on the speedo" when keeping to 20 as opposed to keeping to 30.  It's just change.  We all learn habits, and do lots of things by "feel".  Yes, it will take time to seem "normal".  No particularly good reason why that won't happen in time that I know of?  Unless everyone's been issued with supercars with binary accellerators?

Some people are driving at 15mph?  Great!  It worked!  If Swansea's full of commodious dual carriageways, and people feel you need to, surely just overtake them (at up to 20mph) if it is safe and appropriate to do so?

Plenty of aggression from frustrated drivers and overtaking in inappropriate places?  Lots of rat running down side streets?  How much more of this is there than before?  Is it just that the change means people's level of arousal has gone up and thus it's now noticed where it wasn't before?

Plenty of aggression from frustrated drivers and overtaking in inappropriate places?  Lots of rat running down side streets?  How much more of this is there than before?  Is it just that the change means people's level of arousal has gone up and thus it's now noticed where it wasn't before?

I have never been overtaken in residential areas with such frequency, since the introduction of the 20mph limit, also being aggressively tailgated on a daily basis! (I passed my test in 1989!!)

In many towns and villages we in Wales have lots of NC roads and B roads that skirt or go up and around hills - valleys - rivers for example outside of our towns and villages, now it is either quicker or perceived to be quicker to use these roads (some are single track) than go into the 20Mph zones. This is happening now and is a common new driving route choice behaviour.

These are my observations as to how things have changed since the change to 20mph, and talking to a wide cohort of others, their experience, and observations also!