20mph speed limits in Wales

There's a difference between simply commenting on something and claiming that the experience of someone who actually lives there is a lie.

Lessons on Wales from a Londoner.

Lessons on honesty from the world's most forgetful eidetic.

Rich_cb wrote:

There's a difference between simply commenting on something and claiming that the experience of someone who actually lives there is a lie.

As in, for example, someone who lives in Wales telling someone who lives in a black area of London that the Met police stop and search policies aren't racially biased even when the force themselves has admitted they are. Gotcha.

There's that famous honesty at play once more.

I never said that stop and search wasn't racially biased. I said that the statistics used as 'proof' of said bias were not adequately adjusted and therefore could not be used to draw that conclusion.

I did explain it to you at the time, strange that you didn't remember...

Rich_cb wrote:

the world's most forgetful eidetic.

P.S. Eidetic is an adjective, not a noun.

Rendel Harris wrote:

even in the English media there's been huge publicity about this for months and the law was passed nearly a year ago. Anyone in Wales who has a TV, radio, internet access or ever reads a newspaper but still claims they weren't aware of it is either a liar or an amnesiac.

I really can't imagine that many people genuinely didn't know about it.

But Rich will slag off anything that Drakeford and the Senedd does that is not aligned with the Tories' attempts at wrecking the whole country (the UK, not just Wales).

Meanwhile the excuses get more and more ridiculous. A BBC news article leads with a business owner who says it's "destroying companies and putting so much stress on people". Deliveries by Bzams Bed'z And Mattresses in Llanelli are apparently taking an hour and a half longer. Yeah, sure they are mate. <sigh> Where did I put that miniature violin?

I expect the horror stories and whining will continue for a while before they tail off as the reality that driving slightly slower in towns doesn't really make any real difference to overall journey times.

Yet 1/4 people don't know about the highway code changes.

That's a bit strange isn't it, given that those changes were widely covered in the media and have been in place for quite a while now?

Maybe a good percentage of the populace simply don't take an interest in the news?

You're correct that I often criticise the Welsh Government but given that the Welsh NHS and education system are objectively underperforming relative to their English equivalents it seems that the party allegedly trying to "wreck the country" should take a leaf out of Drakeford's book if they actually want to do it properly.

Absolute crap! This has been all over the tv and radio news in Cymru for yonks.
Maybe they should stop tuning into Midlands news còverage

You'd be amazed how many people simply don't follow the news and especially the political news.

How do people think they would have got to hear about it then?

Surely if this change was massively important to people and given that the media picked this up does seem odd that so many say "well it's the first I've heard..."

Or is a change to a number on some road signs is maybe not that compelling, until your neighbour runs in waving some papers (sorry, tweets) saying that it's going to take everyone half as long again to get anywhere?

Isn't this just standard - same as eg. planning consultations? People are busy with their lives. They switch off when they're given details about changes to banal stuff. Even when widely advertised, discussed on the media, displayed on billboards etc. Then moment they or a pal actually *experiences* an effect of the change, they're out (on the internet) waving pitchforks and crying they weren't consulted.

Not really sure how to get round that, but doubtless our politicians have been motivated to study the issue!

I think most people were aware of the upcoming change but I think a lot of people didn't realise the scale of it.

Some were completely unaware of any of it.

The highway code changes were covered incredibly broadly in the media and yet 1/4 people (IIRC) still aren't aware of the new rules.

Sounds like they're trying to actively notify people with police not immediately applying penalties to those they stop, for a period.

I'm sure "x% always say they had no idea - rising to y% if they disagree with the change" is a common occurrence. Presumably there are studies in politics / psychology of ways to address this? Albeit probably lots of nebulous quantities like "public mood" get involved for changes applying to large populations like this?

Any better ideas?

Or are you suggesting the Senned tried to sneak it through (which failed for this non-resident at least)?

It seems that the postal leaflet reached the parts that other media could not so, in future, it might be wise to run the postal campaign earlier so more people were aware.

My concern is that the backlash this has created will threaten the multiple (broadly popular) 20mph zones that were already in place. Those have all been scrapped now and signage is being removed.

Should the default limit be reinstated to 30mph then all those zones will need to be re-established with new signage at a cost of 10s of millions. In the current fiscal climate I can see a lot of those zones being left at 30 as that wouldn't cost anything.

The law of unintended consequences.

Rich_cb wrote:

The law of unintended consequences.

Well, that's possible. Ain't that a consequence of any "joined up" change though? What unifies in one go can be undone similarly, losing previous gains also?

Plus if parties really decide there's enough capital in "stopping the war on the motorist" I'm not convinced they'd worry about such details in the first place.

Under the previous system each 20mph zone would have had to have been undone individually at a local level.

Now they've been subsumed into the default speed limit they can all be undone simultaneously at a central level.

It would be a big step backwards but I worry that's where we're headed.

Once something becomes a "wedge issue" sensible approaches tend to go out of the window.

Rich_cb wrote:

Once something becomes a "wedge issue" sensible approaches tend to go out of the window.

For that to happen the feedback goes both ways of course.  It's a fact that we have very recently seen a swing on this by the Conservative leadership (promptly followed by Labor of course).  Yes, if there's sufficient disquiet some politicians will sense opportunity.  However contentious but soluble issues can also be made into "red line" fights with binary choices - this kind of thing is definitely more likely towards elections.

I'm guessing a fight wasn't the idea of those who enacted this idea.  I don't know the detailed history though - and I am aware they got some "mixed" feedback in 2022 though which they decided to downplay.

Rich_cb wrote:

It seems that the postal leaflet reached the parts that other media could not so, in future, it might be wise to run the postal campaign earlier so more people were aware.

There will always be people who conveniently forget. Before an LTN was implemented in our local area, consultation leaflets were dropped through doors more than once (this was pre-pandemic). That didn't stop people claiming that there had been no consultation, as this suited their narrative.

You'd be amazed at how people dismiss things they don't want to hear. 

Rich_cb wrote:

You'd be amazed how many people simply don't follow the news and especially the political news.

No I wouldn't. 

However, if you choose not to follow the news (and therefore miss your chance to object about something before it happens) you relinquish your right to complain that you didn't know about something when it happens, because that is on you. 

I also live 150 miles or so from Wales and knew all about this months ago.

x% immediately discarded this unread as junk mail (especially if it said "Important changes which may affect you!" on the front).

y% skimmed it, decided it didn't involve them getting a large sum of money or their house repossessed and binned it.

z% read it, got quite irritated and angrily tossed it in the bin but had forgotten about it ten minutes later.

It's not just the mundane that is invisible; sometimes the disagreeable is also.

And how many of them have found out the exact proposal instead of regurgitating incorrect claims from twitterx and facebook ?

There's some roads around Long Niddry where the 40mph goes to 20mph with no step at 30mph.
It's brutal ... and it really does feel slow.

And then I think how fast the normally (unless gravity assisted) 20mph feels on my bike .. and I wish far more often than I should that I could maintain 20mph on the bike...

Is that much different from 60 to 30 with no step?
 

My only problem is my cruise control doesn't work below 20 and when I tried last week, it was a fail when trying to set it.

Mine works down to 30 of whatever.

So switching it to kph gives me down to 18mph.

This is a VW group car.

On the occasional day I drive to work, I come off a 55 MPH road onto a half mile long 15 MPH driveway. I have no trouble holding my 2005 MINI to 15±1 MPH by the engine sound and an occasional glance at the speedometer. I don't have to stare at it continuously.

Maybe it helps that it's a manual transmission and I can just put it in second gear.

Before they completed the Maybole Bypass the main rd dropped from a 60 to a 20 for the town. They did after a while put in a buffer of 30. Even then people still struggle. You get warning signs from 300 yds out that the limit is changing so the here's time to mentally prepare as well as start reducing speed. I would always have other drivers practically in my boot anytime I drove down to Cairnryan at that stretch.