Vulpine: fifteen thoughts on value

What I find hard to swallow is the notion that Vulpine is offering great value for money and then uses a UK discount online shop to sell its garments at half price.

Kinda pi$$es on the people that have already paid full price and can only pay full price on your own site.

Fixie Girl wrote:

What I find hard to swallow is the notion that Vulpine is offering great value for money and then uses a UK discount online shop to sell its garments at half price.

Kinda pi$$es on the people that have already paid full price and can only pay full price on your own site.

Could not have put it better myself.

I've followed the growth of Vulpine and own a few of their garments. I like what they do and think their clothing is good. But to get the e-mail from said UK discount online shop about selling Vulpine stuff half price seemed like a bit of a slap in the face.

Hi @TrimmDich and @FixieGirl, this was an experiment to save having to sample sale the too-many XLs and XXLs I bought before we launched and knew how many we were going to sell.

I hope that's a fair reason for discounting...So that we can buy lots of nice new stock, as we've run out of the other sizes. We don't want to anything that annoys you, but I have to do something to make good my cockups!
Nick.

aslongasicycle wrote:

Hi @TrimmDich and @FixieGirl, this was an experiment to save having to sample sale the too-many XLs and XXLs I bought before we launched and knew how many we were going to sell.

I hope that's a fair reason for discounting...So that we can buy lots of nice new stock, as we've run out of the other sizes. We don't want to anything that annoys you, but I have to do something to make good my cockups!
Nick.

Hi Nick

I would happily accept that if:

a) the sale was offered on your site as well - not hidden to protect your own online price
b) you'd mailed your customers first - I didn't get one?!
c) many of the products have all sizes especially the LS Jersey that I recently purchased for my partner
d) the company listed didn't take a commission/payment for listing

As a female cyclist in the US I was following your company with interest though I have to say I will not be buying again.

FG

Hi Crikey,
I'm not one for grand statements (actually, rubbish, yes I am) but I'd say Vulpine is one of the most technical brands out there. There is more tech involved in making sure something gets to work or the pub odourless and comfortable than in a race (and I raced a great deal). Racing is essentially based around aerodynamics, which tight lycra is ideal for, but I have seem little innovation in the pure racing market for 3 decades.

I think the merino debate will always rage. But synthetic fibres stink very quickly, which is not allowable for us! I consider merino highly technical and the best controller of temperature, wet, cold or hot, there is. And bloody gorgeous to wear.

You could say I'm biased, but I chose everything from a raft of fabrics of every kin, because they performed better than anything else. Its a faaaairrrlyyy good recommendation!

I don't think that great photography and design is a 'London' thing. I just think its still unusual and stands out in cycling. I'm from Nottingham, so can we call it a Notts thing?

thereandbackagain wrote:

I'm genuinely puzzled by one thing.

You guys, and to some extent both Assos and Velobici get a pretty easy ride on the cost vs value front, whereas people constantly complain about Rapha being "too expensive."

Or, at least it feel that way when reviewing social media, forums and sites. Why is that?

To me, it seems like Rapha go in a bit more for pricey accessories than some other brands. I can understand paying for well designed clothing that uses technical materials, but what purpose does a £40 espresso cup or £50 silk scarf serve, if not to reinforce the idea of the brand being 'reassuringly expensive'?

I don't really have an opinion on the relative cost of Assos, but the way they market to women is pretty rubbish, so thankfully that's one that doesn't tug on my purse-strings.

thereandbackagain wrote:

I'm genuinely puzzled by one thing.

You guys, and to some extent both Assos and Velobici get a pretty easy ride on the cost vs value front, whereas people constantly complain about Rapha being "too expensive."

Or, at least it feel that way when reviewing social media, forums and sites. Why is that?

I think there is a large degree of reverse snobbery. I liken it to Apple. Apple get slated hugely on value, yet if you take another brand's equivalent offering (not just headline comparables like CPU, memory, screen res etc, but the aluminium unibody, good keyboard/parts and so on), the prices are usually very close. Rapha, Apple, and others like Audi, for example, have a style that is quite distinctive and attracts flak that they value form over function.

notfastenough wrote:

I think there is a large degree of reverse snobbery. I liken it to Apple.

Hmmm, not sure I get this. Apple products are hugely popular and chic now. I use and look after Apple macs at work and they're much easier to manage than anything with Windows and very reliable. The UI is leagues above from anything from Microsoft. I don't use a tablet or mobile phone, but I find the macs are definitely worth the premium.

In contrast, I feel an Audi is just another car, a VW with a styling job. It doesn't work better than a VW or Skoda, or offer any appreciable gain for the premium, so to me they are overpriced (and these days the black ones also attract arrogant knobs who think they own the road). Hide the grille badge and it's just another car.

Returning to Vulpine, Nick's arguments remind me of Howies, a company who I like though they may seem a bit too earnest for some. Principles cost money.

But what would I get for Rapha's premium? I'm not really sure, and perhaps some people feel uneasy about what appears to be 'all style, no substance' marketing. We've been there before. A £240 jacket might be very good but is it £200 better than my Gill?

I don't look down at people who wear Rapha or Assos, or who ride a Colnago or a Dogma. Lucky them. I don't mind what they wear or ride, I care about what they say and do.

I can well imagine that Rapha did 'loss lead' at the start, or at very least had still to undergo the exercise of finding out how much they could charge and who they were selling to.

They had a 'tested by messengers' type strapline when they started. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that bike messenging raise the types of money to buy £140 jackets.

But the brand pitch certainly wasn't aimed at the well heeled city type, like some of their stuff today.

dafyddp wrote:

Interestingly, Apple have developed into one of the world's highest valued companies by consistently innovating and providing a level of customer care (in-store at least) that consistently exceeds expectations. Whether they can keep this up of course, will be interesting to see.

Interestingly one of the issues with Apple is that they so rapidly antiquate their products. My girlfriend's Ipad 1 is no longer supported by their IOS operating system. It means I can't download the electronic version of the Cyclist as a result. Thanks Apple.

I agree on most of the points above. Value is a bit of a subjective thing. Someone who regularly cycles many wet weather miles will value top quality waterproofing over someone who doesn't (and so they may have similar incomes/lifestyles, but different price points for wet weather items). I do feel though that in the high technical world of cycling you cannot easily get away with poor quality products. People soon put the quality of the item to the test and people with bad experiences will soon post their findings on the websites. Very often more expensive items come back with few bad comments, and many positives - whereas a poor one may have many satisfied customers, but you quite often get reviews saying items have fallen apart.

Having had a reasonable disposable income I usually choose more expensive options, but always do my homework. Choosing the right item and for the right reasons. I dislike having to pay 'twice' if I subsequently realise that the item I have purchased is not what it could be. My GF experienced this when by her road bike (I decided to take a big step back to allow her to feel comfortable about her purchase). She bought an inexpensive bike and then less than a year later ungraded to a more suitable option. She lost half the price of the original bike in that time.

What increasingly concerns me is that we are not building our manufacturing base in this country. We are selling off our expertise bit by bit to China and elsewhere. There will come a point where there is little or no competitive advantage in getting the products created elsewhere and there simply won't be the quality workforce here to pick up the business. We will effectively have to start from scratch, if we ever do.

"What increasingly concerns me is that we are not building our manufacturing base in this country. We are selling off our expertise bit by bit to China and elsewhere. There will come a point where there is little or no competitive advantage in getting the products created elsewhere and there simply won't be the quality workforce here to pick up the business. We will effectively have to start from scratch, if we ever do."

This is essentially already the case Colin. The workforce is still here, but losing it's skills. The investment definitely isn't here. And factories are immensely expensive operations to create and maintain. I met an investor and told him if he created a UK factory that could work with the materials we use, we'd be there in a shot. But it takes a lot of brands to do that. There are bits and bobs, but not much. We are, generalising, a manufacturing country of artisans. I'd love to see us return to something close to where we were 100 years ago (without the soot).

aslongasicycle wrote:

The workforce is still here, but losing it's skills. The investment definitely isn't here. And factories are immensely expensive operations to create and maintain. I met an investor and told him if he created a UK factory that could work with the materials we use, we'd be there in a shot. But it takes a lot of brands to do that. There are bits and bobs, but not much. We are, generalising, a manufacturing country of artisans. I'd love to see us return to something close to where we were 100 years ago (without the soot).

Hi Nick - We've managed to it for 4 years and have been steadily expanding our UK manufacturing throughout that time.

Our Leicester factory for example has about 750 year's experience in garment manufacture.

Its not as hard or expensive to manufacture in the UK as people would have you believe, though it is not without its challenges...

All the best, Pete

Hi Finbar, I'm no expert and can't give you figures (I had a ferret about and it seems pretty hard to find a comparison) but Merino is of course made by natural means and is biodegradeable. It need treating and cleaning, but at least its not plastic made from petroleum. The merino trade is heavily regulated, also.
This may help though certainly not detailed enough:
http://www.woolrevolution.com/virtues.html

aslongasicycle wrote:

Hi Finbar, I'm no expert and can't give you figures (I had a ferret about and it seems pretty hard to find a comparison) but Merino is of course made by natural means and is biodegradeable. It need treating and cleaning, but at least its not plastic made from petroleum. The merino trade is heavily regulated, also.
This may help though certainly not detailed enough:
http://www.woolrevolution.com/virtues.html

A nice balanced and non-biased website there.

I do so love people spouting the environmental credentials of a product flown half the way around the earth to be treated then manufactured for use in a luxury hobby.

I like merino but I'm under no illusion that it's "good for the planet"

And fwiw not all plastic is made from petroleum and it's not quite as evil as people make out. Furthermore it pays my wages and allows me to buy expensive cycling apparel.

finbar wrote:

Quote:

Cheap synthetic materials create waste.

Tell us about the energy expenditure and chemicals involved in cleaning, washing and scouring merino wool compared to making synthetics please.

The end user certainly doesn't have to wash merino as much, I wear a merino base and a roadcc merino to commute in. The jersey goes weeks before it needs washing… as does my 100 per cent Howies base layer - not as long as the jersey though, the wool mix bases don't last as long mebbe a week, but certainly longer than an all polyester one. And believe me there are plenty of people in my life who'd waste no time in telling me if the wool was honking.

Just a sunny disposition...

I work in the cycling industry and I spend so many hours trying to drill in to people that 'expensive' and 'value' can, and so often do in the world of cycling, go hand-in-hand.

https://twitter.com/NiallRussell