We hate that everything is so expensive in cycling

This. Which once again proves you simply don't need gels if you aren't racing. And as for 'special' sports branded flapjacks at 10x the price....🤷‍♂️

My brother once worked in a factory that made flapjacks... I'll stick to homemade.

Totally agree food/fuel doesn't need to be a special brand.

Does he still work there, or are we safe to eat the flapjacks now?

Le Col use the "DFS" approach to marketing - i.e. there is always a sale on and they hand out £50 vouchers like candy. It's clearly an effective strategy so don't blame them for it, but it does mean you should take their pricing with a generous pinch of salt. 

Yes, very noticeable that they occaisionally did one or two vouchers per year on strava and you needed to complete a large challenge to get them. Now they have sometimes two a month and most of the cheaper clothing options they did have disappeared.

It would be nice to know the mark up they make on all cycling components and clothing. I think we're being ripped off. They will get that greedy they will kill it! 

Wow, just checked and seems to be similar dates on other sites as well. And same with the rival and axs compatible ones as well. Glad I didn't go SRAM in the end for my replacement bike. 

Most of us don't race and don't want to, we just want to ride round the countryside with our mates and do the occasional alp, for fun. I like having Di2 because it's less strain on my arthritic hands than mechanical. I like having a 6.8kg bike because it'll take about 5% fewer watts to ride than a 10kg one and at my age I need all the savings I can get. There are more types of cycling than just racing; those who do race and run clubs should do more to explain to kids/parents that it needn't be that expensive, rather than whine about, and sneer at, old donkeys like me who happen to like riding nice bikes around quietly and slowly instead of racing as if we're "wrecking the sport."

If you believe a 6.8kg bike requires 5% less watts you are one of those perpetuating the myths of more expensive kit. What do you weigh? 

Hicksi wrote:

If you believe a 6.8kg bike requires 5% less watts you are one of those perpetuating the myths of more expensive kit. What do you weigh? 

80kg. At that weight a 5% climb on a 6.8kg bike at 20kmh takes 316W, on a 10kg bike 326W. I was overestimating there I agree, nearer 3% than 5%, that's still a very worthwhile saving for me.

I know we like to argue about everything on here, but surely "lighter bikes take less effort to pedal than heavier ones" isn't controversial?

My winter bike, which is aluminium, with full guards, 28mm tyres, external battery front light, heavy spare tube etc etc weighs a ton. Hills are a painful slog (not that I do many in winter on it) at a fraction of the pace of either of my summer super bikes.🤷‍♂️

1) Slightly heavier winter bikes are better training 2) a lot of the extra weight is the extra clothing we wear in winter and 3) the actual, properly recorded differences of winter bikes are microscopic - we see this demonstrated at my club all the time. 

So, like the entire industry, you were fiddling figures. And unless your entire ride is a 5% climb, it's even more wrong. On the flat or downhill, total weight difference, that's bike AND RIDER means the power figure number differences are microscopic; maybe you'll get to your cake stop 3.2 seconds quicker on a £5000 bike than a £500 bike. This is exactly the snake oil that is all over bike and kit reviews. I don't care a tot if overweight, wealthy people want to waste their money on bling bikes but I do care if it puts up barriers to young people getting into cycling because they can't afford what the industry tells them is 'must have' gear.

Hicksi wrote:

I don't care a tot if overweight, wealthy people want to waste their money on bling bikes but I do care if it puts up barriers to young people getting into cycling because they can't afford what the industry tells them is 'must have' gear.

Apart from being extremely rude, you are entirely wrong, I'm not overweight, at six feet tall and 80kg my BMI according to the NHS is 23.8, neither am I particularly wealthy, I have a bike which would cost £4.5K to replace but I bought it secondhand for £900. Most "non-luxury" bike manufacturers make perfectly acceptable road bikes for not much money and of course there are countless secondhand bargains. Perhaps you should devote your energies to explaining to young people what their options are instead of whining on websites about the sort of bikes other people choose to buy. You seem a very angry person who's simply looking for a fight, so no more responses on this matter from me today - I'm off to ride my bike and enjoy the weight savings on the climbs and the slickness of my Di2 without giving a tuppenny damn whether you approve or not, cheerio! 

Thanks for confirming what a £4.5k bike is really worth; the secondhand values on bling bikes is another embarrassing secret of the trade. I know someone who paid £14,000 for a bike, was massively disappointed that it still hurt riding up hills, gave up cycling, started advertising it for £10,000, so £4000 wasted right away. There is no hope of explaining to young people the silliness of older (but not wiser) people falling for industry advertising because the money driving the advertising is huge and young people always follow fashion, however ridiculous.

Hicksi wrote:

Thanks for confirming what a £4.5k bike is really worth

My bike was £2999 in 2014, I got it for a steal in 2018 from a pro MTB rider who'd bought it because he thought he wanted to branch into road cycling but quickly decided he didn't like it, left it in the garage and just wanted it out of the way. Doesn't prove your point at all, sorry.

My difference in weight between the two bikes I have was about 5-6kgs. I know I used to do the commute on the lighter one in 16mph average where the heavier one is 12-13mph, and I feel more tired with the latter over the distance then the former. Yes I could get faster on the latter with losing weight and / or better training but surely then I would be even quicker on the other one.

Yes your 16yo did well on an old boardman. Are you telling me he wouldn't have gone a lot faster on a more modern and lighter bike? Sounds like you might have a future pro-star in the making.

Absolutely. Imagine how quick he could go on a Bolide that was fitted to him, aero kit, skin suit, helmet and most importantly a well suited and practiced aero position! 

When I was TTing I was nigh on 2 mins quicker on my full TT bike over 10 miles than I was on my road bike.

Doesn't mean riding a £100 bike at the age of sixteen and knocking out a 55min 25 isn't impressive, nor a fantastic, cheap way to get into cycling. So to be honest I think it proves the opposite - that you can get started in this sport cheaply enough if you want to.

My eldest son started TTing with me when he was 14 on a second hand Allez bought for a couple of hundred quid. Bargain bin shorts/ jersey and a cheap helmet. Entry was free for him if I remember correctly.

Ludicrous to compare a road bike with a TT bike, of course there's a difference but put tri bars on a road bike and that difference almost disappears. I was just reading a Cycling News review on the new Pinarello, utter, utter nonsense, how do they write this garbage with a straight face? Two versions, £5300 to £7000. Let's get them both tested by two equal time Time Triallers over 10, 25 and 50 mile courses, with a third Time Trialler on basic bike at £900. There will be red faces all round. shorturl.at/krJPX

The biggest difference between a road bike and TT bike is simply tri-bars and a good aero position and this is demonstrated time and again. When our 16 year old got a TT bike he never beat that road bike/tri bar set up. Shock horror, lots of PPR...Post Purchase Remorse. For top riders, of course tiny changes add to the 'marginal gains' but remember, Tadros was a TT star for years, not with an aero helmet but a cap worn backwards. 

Says the person who chose his profile pic with a TT aero helmet. 

Because helmets have been compulsory in TTs for a while now, but if you're a flash bike/tea shop rider you might not know that.

Hicksi wrote:

Because helmets have been compulsory in TTs for a while now, but if you're a flash bike/tea shop rider you might not know that.

Yet again showing you just want a fight and to satisfy some obscure need by being rude to people. On the actual point, we all know helmets are compulsory for racing, yet you're clearly wearing an expensive aero one, why aren't you following your own dictats and wearing a £15 Halfords' job, are they not as good? Or have you fallen for the industry hype?

Not quite sure that is a fair analysis (though I accept that the bike business loves a sucker).

I left the repair trade in 2015 - it was an easy choice to make. Repairers were being squeezed by retailers like Wiggle who sold below what typical shops could access as distributor pricing.

As a sort of example, for something like a chain with a list price of £20, a manufacturer would sell for £5 to a distributor, who would sell it for £10 to the retailer who would sell it for £20. WIggle could by direct from the manufacturer and sell it for £10, making 50% profit. WIggle might though, decide to sell at £8, less than the retailer can buy from the distributor. Generally, the cheaper the part and higher volume, like brake blocks, the manufacturer and distributor price would be a lower percentage of retail. Expensive parts might be more £100 manufacturer, £150 distributor, £200 retail. 

So along comes customer and he knows Wiggle price, so thinks that the retailer is bagging something like 75% of the price because they assume the retailer buys at the same price as Wiggle. A retailer might not even be able to price match Wiggle at cost.

Next a retailer has to cover the basics in stock, but what stock? One week there might be a run on 105 shifters, then might not see a shifter repair for 6 months - in which time a new generation comes out. But customers tend to want repairs yesterday, so the retailer can go to the distributor - but unless you buy £150 worth of parts, you get charged say £10 delivery - too much overhead for a front derailieur - yet if you buy just in case items to make up delivery, your stock soon gets out of control and any saving is illusory.

A retailer sets his labour partly assuming that the contribution from parts will cover the profitability of a repair. If you have to sell at a much reduced margin, you then either aren't making a living or you are going to have to up your labour charges - which like in the motor trade don't just represent your typical near minimum wage cycle mechanic, but the costs of tools, workshop and all the other overheads (like spending half an hour trying to find a SRAM manual to deal with some obscure SRAM fitting that makes no sense or trying to work how to get some wacky new Campag bottom bracket apart without wrecking it, or worst of all, trying to work out what hub you are looking at on some manufacturer wheel - for example Specialized used Fulcrum wheels but mixed and matched rims and hubs so you couldn't tell how they matched). As a professional bike mechanic, try having the conversation with a customer that you want to sell him an hour's labour just for finding out how to fix a freehub before you've even started. Unless you are working for a high volume, branded store, that is what bike shops are faced with as yet another variant rolls over the doormat. Then there are hangers, literally thousands of them, just trying to match a hanger takes time, you can spend half an hour trying to identify the right hanger for a particular model of bike - it is not always straight forward even to identify the year of a bike and often hangers vary even with minor changes in yearly updates.

So long story short, until lockdown, retailers were being shafted by venture capitalists taking a short term view of maximising turnover to "grow the business" in the competative world of online retail, where short term viability of their company was not a concern, in combination with "savvy" customers using Internet pricing to pressurise retailers, or simply attemptingto DIY because retailers were "clearly" gouging.

Another problem I had was customers. I had a Tesco shelf stacker who had learning difficulties. He would cycle to work and get punctures - regularly. He would call me, I did mobile repairs. He lived 15 minutes away. What would you charge? He couldn't learn to repair a puncture, though I tried to teach him.

Retailers were going bump left right and centre, the bike trade just was too difficult to work in given the unrealistic expectations of customers fuelled by the unrealistic pricing that the Internet worked to.

The lockdown caused a major reset, and indeed overcorrection as scarce parts have triggered prices not just returning to near RRP but those RRPs being inflated, in part because manufacturers have been inflicted with major costs too - the cost of a container to ship goods has not doubled or tripled but transport costs might have increased by a factor of 10 - if you can even locate a container to use.

However, on top of that, you have the natural tendancy of business to try and invent a premium market and consumer lemmings like nothing more than a few buzzwords like titanium and 3D printed to excuse their throwing money around. Taking Shimano as an example, the quality of the lower end products has increased massively, and if you want to avoid Shimano brand inflation, switch from 105 to Tiagra , you are getting 105 2015 quality in 2022 Tiagra, Sora is unrecognisable from the tat it was 10 years ago, and who would have thought something below Sora would be as good as Claris?

I put a like on your comment.

I'm now one of the old buggers with money to spend on kit I don't deserve and more bicycles than I need. I don't race, am about 20% slower than I used to be but there is still the basic satisfaction of owning a really nice bicycle even if the main benefit is just to enjoy looking at it during a cafe stop.

Your anecdotal 16 year old on a £100 Boardman illustrates that cycling can be accessible at relatively low cost. I look after my bikes and literally own them for decades. One day, some young buck will pick up a decent classic in good running order for a bargain (but maybe not £100)

Compared to smoking or a 3 night a week pub habit or gambling or cars or many other vices, cycling is still a cheap option as a mid life crisis / futile attempt to relive one's youth. And with added health benefits regardless of how red faced you are at the finish line.