TfL rebuffs cyclist over safety fears about red light jumping drivers at Bow Roundabout

Scoob_84 wrote:

So the only RLJing of motorist i'm reading here are the ones who go through as the light turns red; exploiting the 2 or 3 second gap when all lights at the junction are red, used for clearing traffic before another stream of traffic is allowed through. All forms of traffic are guilty of this (including evangelic cyclists who stop at all reds), but its a very low risk as nobody else is on a green.

I don't think this is the same as a cyclist (well a person on a bike) who approaches a red light that's been red for a while and passes through when pedestrians are crossing or another stream of traffic is passing through, using only their own judgement to determine whether its safe to do so or not. Even if they pass through without incident, they stress out other road users no end and makes a farce of the highway code.

Motorist RLJers include those who accelerate on amber. Amber means stop, just as much as red does, unless it is dangerous (usually due to another impatient driver too close behind).
As someone comments above, it is unwise to start too promptly when your light goes green, lest you are hit by the amber gamblers.
This illegal behaviour also makes it necessary for the gap between the light phases to be even longer, for the same reason. This in turn increases impatience and enourages even more amber gambling. It also decreases the throughput or capacity of the road system.

A motorist accelerating through a red is rather more dangerous to others than a cyclist who, for his own self preservation, rides carefully through an established red.
If you are stopping for an amber/red on your bike the sound of an aggressively driven car behind is rather intimidating.

Scoob_84 wrote:

So the only RLJing of motorist i'm reading here are the ones who go through as the light turns red; exploiting the 2 or 3 second gap when all lights at the junction are red, used for clearing traffic before another stream of traffic is allowed through. All forms of traffic are guilty of this (including evangelic cyclists who stop at all reds), but its a very low risk as nobody else is on a green.

I don't think this is the same as a cyclist (well a person on a bike) who approaches a red light that's been red for a while and passes through when pedestrians are crossing or another stream of traffic is passing through, using only their own judgement to determine whether its safe to do so or not. Even if they pass through without incident, they stress out other road users no end and makes a farce of the highway code.

Except that gap isn't as long as you think it is. Sometimes (particularly at one major junction I know of) the drivers doing that consume the entirety of the pedestrian phase. Besides, this is just special-pleading 'my breaking the highway code isn't as bad as that other lot doing it'. Doesn't wash.

Scoob_84 wrote:

So the only RLJing of motorist i'm reading here are the ones who go through as the light turns red; exploiting the 2 or 3 second gap when all lights at the junction are red, used for clearing traffic before another stream of traffic is allowed through. All forms of traffic are guilty of this (including evangelic cyclists who stop at all reds), but its a very low risk as nobody else is on a green.

Bullsh*t! Many intersections do the green phase immediately after the red on crossing traffic. I have several that I go through daily, and drivers jumping those lights consistently, meaning I take another few seconds to move off to stay safe rather than splat.

hampstead_bandit wrote:

well I certainly got hurt when I was run over by the road cyclist I mentioned outside Camden tube station, the green pedestrian crossing was lit, meaning the traffic light was also red to oncoming traffic.

I was knocked to the ground and bruised / grazed my right arm and back where I fell, and bruised my jaw on his handlebar

He nearly crashed, but managed to recover and sprinted away before anyone could stop him.

If i was an older person in less robust condition, I could have easily broken a bone / hip or worse.

There were 2 "real" Police standing about 20 foot away and they said they did not see anything....hmmm

The individual doing that certainly was a moron and yes they should be hung out for it. However, I would take being hit by a cyclist jumping a red light over a car every day of the week.

I fail to see, and would welcome constructive feedback on this, why 'motorists' feel such offences are identical to 'cyclist' offences when it comes to RLJ.

It's like comparing someone stealing a kiss to a rapist attack, the levels of injury and potential for harm are just not on the same level and for all the arguments out there the statistics show its those in cars that do the killing and the maiming. No one should jump lights, but when it happens and it goes wrong I know what I'd sooner be hit by.

I can talk with immediate knowledge on this. The roads have taken my five year old sister, (speeding lorry driver who ploughed into the side of the car she was in leaving her to die at the side of the road waiting for an air ambulance) and myself when hit by a motorist on the wrong side of the road (lost place with British Cycling at a centre of excellence and three years cognitive rehabilitation for a brain injury).

So, in the real world, for all of the moaning about cyclists why the hell are people so great at ignoring the fact that it's motorists and their selfish ways that actually need addressing as a priority?

Scoob_84 wrote:

Are people really arguing that more motorists RLJ than cyclists?

I guess it depends where you live, but I see far more cars jumping reds than cyclists.

Three junctions I can guarantee to see cars RL jumping on the way home, GE traffic lights Bishops Cleeve, Poole Way/Swindon Road Cheltenham, Tewkesbury Road/Gloucester Road Cheltenham. As for cyclists jumping lights it happens, but no where near as guaranteed, a lot probably comes down to cyclists being on the pavements rather than the road.

StoopidUserName wrote:

Yes cyclists (almost always slow moving casuals) red light jump, but at a much slower speed and normally at an empty ped crossing light. Don't agree with them doing it but they cause zero danger in comparison to the motorised vehicles.

Zero danger? Tell that to the pedestrians having to jump out of the day when either crossing with a green man or a zebra crossing.

Scoob_84 wrote:

StoopidUserName wrote:

Yes cyclists (almost always slow moving casuals) red light jump, but at a much slower speed and normally at an empty ped crossing light. Don't agree with them doing it but they cause zero danger in comparison to the motorised vehicles.

Zero danger? Tell that to the pedestrians having to jump out of the day when either crossing with a green man or a zebra crossing.

Maybe you could learn to read? Or did you just ignore the empty ped crossings but to make a point?

Don't you just love comment threads!!!

I genuinely see vastly more danger to peds each day from fast moving vehicles than I do from cyclists - try walking round angel any lunchtime to see what I mean - peds are the lowest of the low and must be prevented from crossing the road to spend money AT ALL COSTS don't you know

And I'm not defending idiot muppet RLJ'ers either.

hampstead_bandit wrote:

@arfa

agree. Recently at Aldgate I saw 2 PSCO standing on pavement waiting to cross whilst lorry drove through green pedestrian light of their crossing after RLJ, causing several pedestrians to step back on pavement

I was gobsmacked at their lack of action. What is the point of employing them if they are derelict in their duty?

There's absolutely no point to PCSOs. Except to be able to say there are more officers employed than reality provides... they're useless in every way. I'd rather have a slightly lower number of real police officers.

This is the most reasonable comment ( @hampstead_bandit) I've read on here for a long time. I live less than 400 metres from Bow Roundabout but try to avoid it when at all possible - red light jumpers are common there and you have to be super vigilant and not push it when it goes amber - Russian roulette! Many cyclists do not help matters by ignoring red lights and it is particularly bad on CS2

Initialised wrote:

Simple, cheap fix, put a camera on every traffic light in the country, RLJing by motor vehicles eliminated pretty much overnight.

With some software able to spot offences... that could happen.

miro_o wrote:

Initialised wrote:

Simple, cheap fix, put a camera on every traffic light in the country, RLJing by motor vehicles eliminated pretty much overnight.

With some software able to spot offences... that could happen.

On post radars are now getting to be very capable in tracking vehicles in multiple lanes and in conjunction with high quality CCTV cameras would be able to track offenders through junctions and picking up yellow box and red light jumping and speeding on green (accelerating to try and beat the red).

So capable that you would only require humans in the loop to go over incidents flagged up with a view to prosecution...

PS. the only traffic lights that are generally obeyed in Gloucester are precisely those with cameras on them... similarly, the only speed limits that are obeyed are those with average speed cameras enforcing them. Here is the entrance to a notorious rat-run in Gloucester which has now been tamed:

http://goo.gl/maps/sWflz

denzzz28 wrote:

This is a bit hypocritical. if you compare both cars and cyclist jumping red lights, the cyclist will out number the cars 10 folds. not a single day when I cycle to work that I dont see a cyclist jumping red lights. some cars do jump them but its rare. some cyclist even go through red lights like its green. they dont even slow down.

Im sorry mr Luke Redpath, but you need to first educate cyclist not to jump red lights before you start yapping at motorist. cyclist are also putting their lives at risk when they dont follow the highway code.

Really!

Amber means nothing where I am and red means 'Go faster'

People experience different things depending on time and location.

You can't class all cyclist in the same group as RLJ, just as you can't class all car drivers as RLJ. It's just a case of who is the most lethal and in the event of a RTA, how good the police are at working out what happened and who is to blame.

One rule observe red lights then no confusion.

denzzz28 wrote:

This is a bit hypocritical.

How in any universe is it hypocritical? Have you witnessed Mr Redpath RLJing? If not, why are you calling him a hypocrite?

Your comment is the worst kind of tu quoque nonsense from a cyclist I've seen on this subject in a long time. Not only is your reasoning fallacious, but the premise and 'evidence' you've based it on - i.e. you think more cyclists RLJ than drivers because you personally see lots of cyclists RLJing - is not worth a sook.

I think you will find that motorists jump more red lights than cyclists and overall are more unlawful in a strict sense (speeding, not giving way, on phone while driving etc) . Come for a ride with me and I will show you.

denzzz28 wrote:

This is a bit hypocritical. if you compare both cars and cyclist jumping red lights, the cyclist will out number the cars 10 folds. not a single day when I cycle to work that I dont see a cyclist jumping red lights. some cars do jump them but its rare.

1. I don't think it is rare at all, especially of you take cars that speed up when lights turn amber/red
2. The main statistic is how many KSI are caused by cars jumping and cycles jumping red lights, and that changes things a lot.