Operacion Puerto trial: Fuentes convicted, judge orders destruction of blood bags - will guilty athletes escape?

RTB wrote:

Can you imagine what would happen if this came to light? Scandals that would engulf at least one national government and international governing bodies such as FIFA, IOC, UCI (if there is anything left to engulf them) when world cups, Euro championships, tennis grand slams and olympic medals come into centre focus.

Lance Armstrong would start to look like Peter Pan in comparison.

American tifosi wrote:

The drugs and cover-ups stretch around the globe and touch every high level sporting venue. Does no one remember the era of drugging in the Olympics ? As long as sports competition involves mankind, some will employ any means to gain an advantage. I believe if the truth ever comes out about the complicity of the UCI, WADA, testing labs, et al, professional cycling will disappear for many years. No sponsor will risk their company's reputation or fiscal bottom line to support a corrupt sport. The handwriting is on the wall, alas the die is cast.

Well lets look at the facts: Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis were the fastest men on earth. Both proven to have doped. Then along comes Maurice Greene and his Balco buddy Marion Jones. 100m record falls. And now we see the fastest man on earth. Doping never went away and the extent of it in pro sport is rife. Only just today Deco (former Chelsea player) has been tested positive for masking agents. It is germane today to say this as he is a former Barcelona player, whom may well have had an account with Fuentes. The major problem is the veil of secrets and requirements for proof. In a court of law the proof has to be of a high standard - but pharmaceuticals are rapidly changing and getting better and mimicking real hormones, and to be able to test the athletes you need to know what they are taking. It took almost have a decade for drug agencies to be aware of EPO abuse, and a little longer to test for it. The testing is always behind the curve.

Actually I think that the reason the blood bags are to be destroyed is that at the time it was not illegal in Spain to dope etc. And so you cannot keep evidence where no crime was committed, so she is right in doing that.

Not really Colin. Couple of points:

1. Guilt as a result of a crime has been established and this is/was prima facie evidence so any justice of any standing (and the Spanish justice looks quite horizontal after this judgement) would protect that evidence in perpituity for legal record. The fact that the evidence is ordered to not be destroyed until after any appeals process is exhausted substantiates this. This destruction order, except in the case of national security, must be unprecedented in a western European democracy.

2. The reach of fraudulent gains achieved in international events (across all sports) as a direct result of these practices makes this evidence (or at least the samples) material for any international proceedings that could be brought so it is the duty of a responsible justice to protect such evidence not destroy it which is the behaviour you might expect from a corrupt dictatorship.

Bottom line the only plausible motivation to destroy this evidence is to make it go away for ever to protect the reputations of people in positions of power. It is dirty, appalling and undemocratic.

RTB][quote=Colin Peyresourde wrote:

Actually I think that the reason the blood bags are to be destroyed is that at the time it was not illegal in Spain to dope etc. And so you cannot keep evidence where no crime was committed, so she is right in doing that.

Not really Colin. Couple of points:

1. Guilt as a result of a crime has been established and this is/was prima facie evidence so any justice of any standing (and the Spanish justice looks quite horizontal after this judgement) would protect that evidence in perpituity for legal record. The fact that the evidence is ordered to not be destroyed until after any appeals process is exhausted substantiates this. This destruction order, except in the case of national security, must be unprecedented in a western European democracy.

2. The reach of fraudulent gains achieved in international events (across all sports) as a direct result of these practices makes this evidence (or at least the samples) material for any international proceedings that could be brought so it is the duty of a responsible justice to protect such evidence not destroy it which is the behaviour you might expect from a corrupt dictatorship.

Bottom line the only plausible motivation to destroy this evidence is to make it go away for ever to protect the reputations of people in positions of power. It is dirty, appalling and undemocratic.

Actually, if you want to get factual. The crime in question is one of public health. Nothing to do with sport. There was nothing illegal in Spain at that time about what the athletes were doing. The 'fraud' would then have to show that the athletes won something while cheating. Without knowing who they are and what they won I'm not sure this can be shown - you might even require a positive competition test to show this (although I know this sounds ludicrous).
I understand that judicially that police can only hold evidence where a crime has been committed. So unless you know of the exact crime it is they can't hold the evidence (bearing in mind that Spain does not have law against doping). Current privacy laws in the EU prevent information from being held without cause so although we know that the blood bags proves doping (not a Spanish crime in law), it does not prove a crime has been committed in Spain. Frustrating but true.

I'm not saying that this isn't expedient (for the Spanish government) nor that it is right (morally), but you have to have a process in law for the evidence to be kept. The same process which allowed athletes to dope with impunity in Spain also protects them here. It's whether a good legal case can be made as to whether this can be challenged. This is where the Spanish government can make a precedent and open things up. So it's not as cut and dried as you make out. A judge cannot make an arbitrary decision that they are not legally required to do either, so it is not as if the judge is just being corrupt. Any appeal would see to that.

The problem for WADA and the anti-doping agencies is that there does not appear to be easy grounds for the appeal. If there were the legal process could be kept open. Again, I'm not saying this is morally right, but merely this issues underlying this. There was a great article on this somewhere and if I could find it I would link it. It is certainly not as cut and dried as you are making out (and the over simplification by the press also is not helping).

It is a crying shame if more does not come of this though.

You're right but although it might not have been a criminal offence it is a doping offence and should absolutely be looked at. Just whether they can cope with the shame. I suppose they can depending on who's lining their pockets!