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news
Ashley Neal overtaking video - car horn use (screenshot via YouTube, Ashley Neal)Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal divides opinion with use of horn in overtaking video
Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal has divided opinion online after posting a video in which he beeps his car horn at two cyclists while overtaking them.
Neal, the son of European Cup-winning Liverpool full back Phil Neal, regularly posts videos on his website and YouTube channel, which has over 98,000 subscribers, chronicling his experiences as a driver and instructor in the northwest of England.
Neal, who runs his own driving school business, has often been praised for his even-handed approach to cyclists on the roads, and last year posted a video analysing an incident in which a cyclist was knocked off their bike by a motorist, an act the instructor claimed was “done purposefully”.
Last week’s video, titled ‘Cycling 2 Abreast and Overtaking’, caused a stir in the comments of the video itself and on the road.cc forum, after some viewers claimed that Neal was criticising the cyclists riding two-abreast before “unnecessarily” beeping his horn at them as he passed.
As he approaches the cyclists in the video, Neal says: “Do they need to be taking up a primary position and riding two-abreast at the moment? Yes.
“But I think this is going to cause issues with the new updates to the Highway Code. And that’s if some cyclists choose to ignore the other advice which has been updated to say that they should move back to single file to allow faster moving traffic to overtake.”
On the subject of riding two abreast, the revised Highway Code states: “You can ride two abreast and it can be safer to do so, particularly in larger groups or when accompanying children or less experienced riders. Be aware of drivers behind you and allow them to overtake (for example, by moving into single file or stopping) when you feel it is safe to let them do so.”
> Highway Code changes: ‘What about cyclists, or do the rules not apply to them?’
Neal then questioned whether the cyclists’ decision to carry on riding two abreast prevented him “from giving them a proper two metres space on this faster speed limit”, before answering “well, it does”.
The Highway Code updates advise that drivers should “leave at least 1.5 metres when overtaking cyclists at speeds of up to 30mph, and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds”, and only explicitly notes that two metres’ distance should be maintained when passing pedestrians or horses on the road.
“Just because you can ride two abreast,” Neal continued, “doesn’t mean you should be doing it always. You should still appreciate the flow from other people.”
Neal then proceeds to pass the cyclists, doing so at a safe distance in the opposite lane, sounding his horn as he begins the manoeuvre. After the overtake, Neal told his viewers to give cyclists “as much space and care as you would do overtaking a car… A little beep of the horn is key, no problems, do it safely.”
> Driver knocks cyclist off bike on purpose – then claims she used to be police officer
While some viewers took to the YouTube comments section and the road.cc forum to express their disgruntlement at Neal’s preference for the cyclists to have ridden single file (though he acknowledged that he wouldn’t have been able to pass in any case), most of the resulting controversy surrounding the video centred on his use of his horn.
One road.cc reader wrote: “I don't agree with his use of the horn. Imagine if every car that passed you 'warned you of their presence' with a 'friendly' toot.
“In my view, the only reason to warn someone of your presence is when you think they might need to take some evasive action or look like they might cross your path.”
Another said: “I don't know what a ‘friendly’ toot sounds like, I cannot remember the last time I heard one. It might be some quaint throwback to the golden age of motoring, but in my experience it just doesn't happen these days.
“Therefore, any use of the horn will get my hackles and probably my middle finger up. If you're driving behind a cyclist, however you use your horn will make them jump, which doesn't seem advisable to me.”
Some viewers on YouTube agreed:
“I'm not sure on beeping before you overtake. If someone beeps me when I'm cycling I assume they are highly offended by my existence. If you force a cyclist to take their eye off the road ahead and look around, especially if they are alongside someone, there is a chance they will swerve enough to cause an issue.”
“I really disagree with the use of the horn in this situation. I know why Ashley is using it, but there are very few road users who consistently use the horn like he does. When I am cycling and hear a horn being sounded from a car behind me, I generally assume that an accident or near miss is about to occur and take defensive actions.”
However, others were more forgiving of the ‘friendly toot’:
“In my opinion the reason for riding two abreast is to get the cars to slow down before overtaking thus reducing potential damage (to me). Once they slow down I move into single file as soon as I think it's safe to overtake.
“Very occasionally I don't notice the car behind and a friendly toot is much appreciated. I'm ashamed to admit that aggressive use of the horn just winds me up and the move to single file is much delayed as a result.”
“I'm not totally against a friendly horn toot if a driver thinks I may genuinely not be aware of them. However, if I haven't already heard you coming, then even a friendly toot is likely to be alarming.
“So if you're going to do it, I think you need to leave a pause before you then overtake, to account for the cyclist jumping or turning to look – don't toot while you're mid-overtake.”
Neal took to the comments section himself to respond to those criticising him for his horn use, telling one viewer to “go read the Highway Code”.
“The horn in this situation is a simple ‘excuse me’,” he wrote. “It’s no different than a signal with an indicator if I was passing a car. If someone might benefit, it’s needed. It’s really sad that the true use of the horn is lost on so many.”
Rule 112 of the Highway Code states that the car horn should only be used “while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively.”
According to Neal, “due to their poor positioning and not going back to single file, [the use of the horn] was absolutely necessary. It’s only the poor perception of what the horn should be used for that’s the problem.
“It’s a non-aggressive way of saying “excuse me” and so many cyclists have problems with it… These cyclists were just riding for themselves and did nothing to work together as they should.”
After obtaining a PhD, lecturing, and hosting a history podcast at Queen’s University Belfast, Ryan joined road.cc in December 2021 and since then has kept the site’s readers and listeners informed and enthralled (well at least occasionally) on news, the live blog, and the road.cc Podcast. After boarding a wrong bus at the world championships and ruining a good pair of jeans at the cyclocross, he now serves as road.cc’s senior news writer. Before his foray into cycling journalism, he wallowed in the equally pitiless world of academia, where he wrote a book about Victorian politics and droned on about cycling and bikes to classes of bored students (while taking every chance he could get to talk about cycling in print or on the radio). He can be found riding his bike very slowly around the narrow, scenic country lanes of Co. Down.
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168 comments
Just remembered Jack, I've got another video out next week that addresses the issue with groups of riders riding in one direction and motorists travelling the other. This produces a conflict of space even more than I highlight in the "2 Abreast" clip. If might be worth covering as some of the comments I've replied to on this post have a lot to do to reduce risk for themselves.
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Ashley, how DARE you suggest that Road.cc commenters take steps to reduce risk for themselves?!
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"Why should I, when I am in the right? So what if I come off worst in any incident - right is on my side".
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A couple of years back I took every step possible to protect myself, reduce risk and use the road responsibly. Legal lights, reflective clothing, good road positioning. Yet on a well lit road. On a clear, cloudless morning with better than perfect visibility.
YET a motorist opted to come barrelling out of a side street. T-Bone me and left me for dead in the middle of the road. They never handed themselves in despite appeals for them to do so
I'm back to cycling and to be honest. When I hear that harsh acceleration behind me my heart occasionally goes cold. I'm also incredibly wary of motorists who brake late at junctions to my left because of their over reliance on their modern brakes and the seemingly new phenomena of being taught to brake late at junctions.
I don't go round declaring right is on my side. I and others here though, would rather have certain motorists place a greater value on our lives
A following driver should not be making a choice that creates a risk to cyclists, so there shouldn't be anything for them to mitigate. Sounding the horn to suggest that they 'reduce risk for themselves' is therefore either superfluous, or an indication that the driver is about to do something stupid and probably illegal.
Of course in this situation, if the oncoming cyclists are 2 abreast and there's not enough space to pass safely, the motorised vehicle ought to slow to a stop and allow the cyclists to negotiate their way past.
Sure the cyclists should have been in single file if the road is that narrow, but as a driver, you have to be prepared to stop for anything in the road ahead. Could be a cow, combine harvester, group of 20 boy scouts etc.
More than 2 abreast. Good job I try to encourage motorists to fix the lack of common sense. Please tune in!
Will do Ashley, it's a really important point to look out for people with a lack of common sense!
Just last night I came across an unlit cyclist on a country lane, as we passed my son said it looked like one of the kids who was on his DofE expedition. I was driving to the conditions and saw them in plenty of time.
Some of the weirder things I've come across around a bend on a country road in the middle of nowhere have been a homeless chap with a shopping trolley full of stuff, out of control coming down a hill unable to stop it until it got wedged in a hedge. Two ladies pushing toddlers in buggies, walking 2 abreast, with 4 Alsatians spread across the whole lane. A man dressed in black, laid down in the middle of the road, in the dark.
I think that when a cyclist gets behind the wheel of a car they already have in their minds that they will encounter someone out on a bike be that individual being responsible or not and are already prepared to deal with it. This spills over to expecting the unexpected when out on the road whatever mode is being used.
I do think regardless of the points people are bringing up,and ignore what the highway code says for a moment.
If a car sat behind me for that long with an obvious clear gap to overtake and when it finally did, beeped at me.
I would probably be asking the driver what his 'kin problem was as he passed.
I'm not sure what the problem is - he's even explained why, and the thinking, and the Highway Code; sadly, far too many people are unaware of what horn is for.
From the clip, I'm not convinced the cyclists knew he was there - they never appeared to look over their shoulders, which is a bugbear I have with a lot of cyclists; they never check what's around them.
Last time someone used their horn like that with me it was followed by an extremely close, deliberate punishment pass because I didn't instantly vaporise and the van driver had to wait for oncoming traffic to clear before overtaking. Linc's Police have the footage, and have confirmed action is being taken, but it will no doubt become a NMOTD once they are done.
The morals of this story are:
1. a cyclist cannot tell the intent of a driver when they blow their horn
2. the presence of a vehicle behind me is not something I can do anything about, it is the driver's hjob to avoid me
3. I will decide when it is appropriate for me to assume primary or secondary, single out etc.
4. Just wait you impatient pr!ck
PS you were nowhere near as good as your dad.
Classy comment
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Bitter, twisted much?
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Or just very immature?
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I believe the only appropriate response to this is -
I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?
A friendly toot is one I recieve when pulling over to let a lorry pass or, if in a group, line up to wave them on. I consider a toot from behind as an indication to get out of the way...
I don't want anyone using the horn beside me, it's terrifying, too loud, and I don't know if they are warning me they are aboiut to move into my space.
Once they are in front a single flash of the hazard lights, is better.
Or a single left, right on the indicators. That's classy driving.
Motor vehicle horns are too loud, they are for communicating to others in big metal boxes, insulated for sound. Please don't do it Ashley.
IMHO the biggest issue with horns is they have tended to get louder to be heard through car soundproofing...
Of course this is almost impossible to retrospectively fix. As you would almost certainly need to mandate an upper limit on soundproofing (a sound of x DB at y m must be above z DB at drivers seat.) and then eventually an upper limit on volume once most can hear it...
There are now horns that are 110db+. Depending on whose data you use this is above the point sounds cause mild pain. Even at minimum safe following distance (which most drivers don't keep) it is still too loud. So an alert of presence generally should be done well before.
Unfortunately I don't have video of an ambulance with its (quieter though piercing) sirens demoing this - used sirens well in advance allowing me to locate it, and travel ~30-50 m to pull in safely without it having to slow down when approaching at 3-4x my speed... (next point was narrow humped bridge where clearly they wouldn't be able to safely pass a cyclist regardless)
I didnt want to repeat my points from the forum on this, but I feel I need to, I dont agree there is ever such a thing as a friendly toot and imo Ashley Neil was wrong to use the horn the way he did in his video, he was wrong on the space he needed to pass, wrong that he couldnt overtake safely and wrong that the cyclists needed to single out for him. Though I'm willing to accept the general rounded safety driving points he was making about needing to wait to give space if it isnt there and cyclists should be mindful of their surroundings on the road and consider all those things he raised and that its very difficult on happenchance dashcam video to perfectly film the exact scenario you want to show people.
But cyclists arent some form of R2-D2 mechdroid who communicate in beeps & toots, most cyclists experience drivers beeping at them as a form of "get out of my way", and car drivers maybe because they are sound proofed off from the world dont appreciate that actually we can perfectly hear vehicles approach behind us without them leaning on the horn, they have loud engines, revving normally, they have tyre noise, they have stereos, what possible benefit to aid communication between us is using the horn, I know you are there, you dont beep when you overtake a tractor or beep behind a horse rider, why assume beeping a cyclist is helpful.?
And if I havent noticed any of the giveaway sounds a vehicle is behind me, or used my eyes, what do you think a short blast of 100dB of noise is likely to do right beside you, it will likely make me jump which means a loss of control of the bike just as you are overtaking. Exactly the same way pedestrians react when cyclists use their bells beside them.
Stay off the horn in a car unless you are about to crash into something, because I will have no idea if you are trying to thank me, warn me or threaten me with your behavior.
Context is everything, I think you would have an idea how it was intended. But it is also important for us to keep some perspective, otherwise we become unnecessarily hostile to those around us.
That doesn't mean they're not out to get us; but some of them aren't, and we should be open to that idea.
The horn is not restricted to imminent disaster, it is to warn of your presence. We are effectively arguing in this case about whether it is necessary to warn of our [drivers'] presence. Just like to is our [cyclists'] decision to decide whether it is safe to single out or move to the left, so it is a driver's decision whether or not it may be helpful to warn another road user. I think we [cyclists] may have to allow them [drivers] the discretion to give an emotionally neutral warning sound.
That is not a reason not to use a horn. For the driver: if there is a legitimate cause to use one, use it; if the intent is hostile, don't. For the cyclist, the context will tell you if a driver was being hostile. If we jumpt to conclusions, we'll be just as bad as the driver Ashley Neal could have been if he'd just sat there stewing about cyclists in his way.
I had a case just last week as I turned and rode onto a single track road that's up a hill, which I knew I was going to be slow up, I heard a car join behind me.
So I chose to get out of their way straight away and gave them space to overtake so they wouldnt sit behind me pressuring me up the hill, they beeped as they accelerated past me.
Was it a thankyou ? a warning they were there ? or the hostile anger for holding them up even only briefly?
I move over on single track roads a fair bit to let traffic past very few ever beep me for it, most people use hazard lights or signal with their arms thanks the majority normally completely ignore you, and if I moved out of their way I obviously know they are there so it only leaves the angry motorist, but I've no idea which one it was, though I suspect it was as always triggered by anger.
To me this is so wrong I can't believe you're serious. Two quick beeps on the horn are, in my opinion, perfectly acceptable if done at a reasonable distance. I accept it as information that a vehicle is coming. A long loud blast of the horn is hardly friendly. As Mr Mungegrundle points out below, wind noise can be very loud and cover the sound of vehicles approaching from behind so a warning is fine. As for only using the horn when you are about to crash is plain silly.
You can kinda tell how aggressive a bib is meant to be but my reaction is always the same (although with some nuance). Cheesey grin and a wave. If they meant the bib as a friendly 'I'm here' they'll think I'm being friendly in return. If they were trying to intimidate they'll think I'm taking the piss.
I really wondered what you meant by "bib" then!
Because an aggressive bib is how mine fits under the jersey!
(Is a friendly honk, 'bib shorts'?)
I have zero issue with horn use in that situation, sometimes you don't hear a vehicle behind you. It's not like he's leaning on the horn screaming out the window.
I also didn't see him inferring they shouldn't be riding two abreast and actually stated in that situation they should be. If anything he raised an interesting point that in some cases on a fast road two abreast would put cyclists closer to overtaking traffic when the vehicle is doing so fully in the other lane. I feel this is valid in the case of a couple of cyclists, obviously less so or not at all for a large group.
Not having found it myself, I think he may have suggested in BTL comment replies that they should have singled out
If you take the sounding of the horn by another road user as its default meaning, i.e being nothing more than alert of presence then there is nothing to take offence at.
On a country road I don't object to a vehicle coming up behind to use a quick beep to let me know they are there. When the wind is whistling through your helmet you often cannot hear the approach from engine and road noise alone.
As to what I do with that information:
I can acknowledge the presence of the other road user.
I have no wish to be in their way. I'd far rather they were past and up ahead as an advanced crumple zone against oncoming traffic.
I will make best attempts to help facilitate a safe overtake.
I won't be caught unawares if they do make a poor pass.
If it is aggressive and followed by aggressive driving it gets sent to the local Police traffic team https://youtu.be/nS1Rnwjzdl4 and, as we have learned from multiple annecdotes, the best response at the time is no response at all lest HM Constabulary take offence or indeed the poor time pressed motorist just has to stop up ahead and create a scene because they were so upset about you saying a naughty word or making a rude hand signal in response to fearing for life and limb.
I don't see an issue with the quick pip in this case, this was not agressive. IMO and clearly the cyclists were not unhappy
IMO he could (and should) have overtaken sooner there was good visibility and reasonable room.
Talk of not being able to give 2m seems strange because the entire other lane is clear. what does the highway code say?
"leave at least 1.5 metres when overtaking cyclists at speeds of up to 30mph, and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds"
Note when overtaking at higher speeds, not when overtaking on roads with faster speed limits. So the driver is at liberty to overtake at 1.5m (which is available) as he has already slowed down. If he was blasting past them at 60mph (because he reached them on a long straight road that was clear at the time) then 2m
mightwould be appropriate. There is nothing in this example where the cyclists have prevented faster moving traffic from passing.IMO
the actions of the cyclists are fine the driver can overtake safely
the actions of the driver are fine, he did overtake safely
The following car could complai he didn't overtake sooner, the road wasn't straight but there was clear visibility ahead.
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