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When your love of Wales grows to the point that you can actually bring yourself to live here please get back to me.

Until then your opinion is worth no more than anyone else who claims Welsh ancestry but lives elsewhere.

If you want an independent Wales come back here and help build it.

Actions speak a whole lot louder than words after all.

Rich_cb wrote:

When your love of Wales grows to the point that you can actually bring yourself to live here please get back to me. Until then your opinion is worth no more than anyone else who claims Welsh ancestry but lives elsewhere. If you want an independent Wales come back here and help build it. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words after all.

Presumably you felt the same about all those expats in Spain who voted for Leave and indeed the current government? I'm not sure I can handle the new "woke" Rich.

Indeed I do. I'm not a fan of those permanently resident oversees having a vote on UK affairs.

I'm also a big believer that if you move to a country you should, as far as possible, integrate yourself into the community there.

From what I have seen, admittedly almost entirely via the media, the British expat community in Spain does not make much effort to integrate or even to learn Spanish.

It may be that the media presents a skewed version and the reality is very different of course.

Rendel Harris wrote:

Presumably you felt the same about all those expats in Spain who voted for Leave and indeed the current government? I'm not sure I can handle the new "woke" Rich.

I thought that a lot of expats didn't get to vote for or against Brexit - or at least not if they'd lived abroad for more than 15 years. There were also complaints about them not receiving ballot papers in time even if they were eligible.

They likely would have swung the vote the other way: https://www.iexpats.com/what-if-british-expats-had-voted-in-the-brexit-referendum/

Quite a few expats retain UK addresses so they can still access SKY TV. They're were essentially illegal immigrants.

don simon fbpe wrote:

Quite a few expats retain UK addresses so they can still access SKY TV. They're were essentially illegal immigrants.

How can they be illegal immigrants if they were born here? Also, I don't like the term "illegal" immigrants - maybe "yet to be authorised refugees" is a better term - it's not as though they've been found guilty of anything.

(Don't get me started on companies geo-locking services)

"Illegal emigrants"?

I skim-read and had presumed the good Don was alluding to the prominent Brexit supporters who had backed Britain by choosing to pay taxes - or locate their businesses - elsewhere? (That article is almost 4 years old though so some may have come back to enjoy the Brexit Benefits locally!)

From an institutional perspective I appreciate that which the Scottish government took when Brexit occured - essentially "if you reside in Scotland, you're Scottish".  Obviously this is a vast and complex rabbit hole (identity, rights and responsibilities, culture etc) but I think that's not a bad start.

I would say that though, I only just arrived here a decade ago

chrisonabike wrote:

"Illegal emigrants"?

I skim-read and had presumed the good Don was alluding to the prominent Brexit supporters who had backed Britain by choosing to pay taxes - or locate their businesses - elsewhere? (That article is almost 4 years old though so some may have come back to enjoy the Brexit Benefits locally!)

From an institutional perspective I appreciate that which the Scottish government took when Brexit occured - essentially "if you reside in Scotland, you're Scottish".  Obviously this is a vast and complex rabbit hole (identity, rights and responsibilities, culture etc) but I think that's not a bad start.

I would say that though, I only just arrived here a decade ago

We could do with having two different terms - one for people born on a particular piece of land and one for the people living on that particular piece of land. Most of the time, I don't see the importance of where someone was born (except for their culture and customs which can be fascinating), but it's more important where someone lives and pays taxes. I'd be happy to consider anyone to be British (for the purposes of taxation/voting rights etc) if they've been living here for more than a year or so, and happy to go along with them if they considered themselves British/English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh.

Illegal in Spain, no documentation, even with Schengen FoM.

Rich_cb wrote:

When your love of Wales grows to the point that you can actually bring yourself to live here please get back to me. Until then your opinion is worth no more than anyone else who claims Welsh ancestry but lives elsewhere. If you want an independent Wales come back here and help build it. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words after all.

Feel the arrogance of the wannabe english who won't live in england. And trust me, I have done more to build and independent Cymru than you ever will. Why don't you live in england instead of trying to anglicise Cymru? Come back to me after you get rid of the union flag, you are not Welsh and after all, actions speak louder than words. And still not able to admit that an independent Cymru is the same as a UK taken out of EU... Do you go on Hypocrisy.cc to talk bikes?

I'm not Welsh?

I'd love to see the reasoning behind that assertion?

Making up things that I am 'unable to admit' is really a bit desperate by the way.

Becuase you're a unionist, Welsh are Welsh, they are not a part of a "voluntary" union, unlike the UK joining EU, a point which, again, you seem to miss. Or have I missed the EU ring of iron placed in UK? I don't recall the referendum result of Wales joining UK.

If you were Welsh you would want Welsh governance for Wales and not governance from a neighbouring country. Why would you want to be governed by the english? They're making a right dog's arse of it. I can't think of another example where one country is willingly being governed by its neighbour, can you? We have Gaza and Ukraine, but they're hardly amicable relationships, are they?

You may have been born in Wales, but you are betraying any Welsh hetitage you may or may not have.

Feel free to enlighten me on you effort to fight for an independent Cymru.

Ok, feel free to comment on whether on the differences between the benefits of UK leaving EU control and Cymru leaving control of westminster, you've already stated that they're the same. You now claim to have the ability to do so, the floor is yours.

Quote:

The UK had power in the EU in the same way that Wales has power in the UK.

If the UK is not a voluntary union then how do you explain the Scottish Independence Referendum?

It seems that the process to leave the UK is very similar to the process of leaving the EU.

If the EU is a voluntary union and you leave it in the same way you leave the UK then what is the UK?

Wales will never vote for independence whilst we remain financially dependent on the UK.

I am living in Wales, raising a family in Wales and as far as possible supporting Welsh businesses in my day to day life. All of that directly strengthens the Welsh economy and therefore helps to move independence from ideological theory towards practical possibility.

Actions in Wales speaking a lot louder than words shouted across the border.

How is Cymru financially dependent on UK england? Simple answer, it isn't. Right wing press, something you seem to swallow by the bucketload, perpetuates this lie. The already mentioned and totally useless Barnett formula, free water and energy from Cymru to england, Crown estates theft, The £5bn taken for HS2 would have been better spent in Cymru. And finally, you are assuming that the cost of living in and independent Cymru should be as high as a mismanaged england. You have bought the unionist ideology.

Are these businesses that you support independent and paying tax in Cymru or registered in england and having tax set through some bizarre estimation.

Give me a miniute and I'll move my home into Cymru, you'll not be able to try and deflect from your unionism. What a pathetic argument. You be you and keep on failing.

The difference between tax raised in Wales and public spending in Wales is approximately £15bn.

Wales is a net exporter of electricity but roughly 3/4 of that is generated from imported gas. Clearly that's not sustainable in the long term. Even in the short term gas power stations are relatively cheap to build so the potential for arbitrage over rUK would be minimal.

As for water, Yes Wales estimate that exports of our dwr generate £1bn in profits per year. If we assume that a future Welsh government could claim all of that we'd still be £14bn short.

How do you propose making up that shortfall?

How do you propose bringing down the cost of living? Countries with low cost of living also have low wages given that the two are intrinsically linked. I'm assuming you're not proposing a huge wage cut for those of us who actually live here?

Rich_cb wrote:

The difference between tax raised in Wales and public spending in Wales is approximately £15bn. Wales is a net exporter of electricity but roughly 3/4 of that is generated from imported gas. Clearly that's not sustainable in the long term. Even in the short term gas power stations are relatively cheap to build so the potential for arbitrage over rUK would be minimal. As for water, Yes Wales estimate that exports of our dwr generate £1bn in profits per year. If we assume that a future Welsh government could claim all of that we'd still be £14bn short. How do you propose making up that shortfall? How do you propose bringing down the cost of living? Countries with low cost of living also have low wages given that the two are intrinsically linked. I'm assuming you're not proposing a huge wage cut for those of us who actually live here?

By using accurate data.

Please share a link to such data.

Whilst you're at it please tell us how you're going to lower the cost of living?

Cost of living lowered by not subsidising england and by not having corrupt tories funneling tax payer money to their mates. Something you are clearly happy to support, the corruption that is. Are you surprised that different countries have different costs of living?

As for accurate data, it probably doesn't exist. No one knows with accuracy how the economy will look after independence, especially not a unionist. It can only be speculation, who's up for a Celtic Singapore? Or Welsh speaking Monaco? Extremes, but you simply haven't a clue and comparing to england is poor form. If you love it so much, move there.

So you don't actually have a plan for reducing the cost of living.

Will electricity get cheaper? Food? Housing?

Would like to see that 'accurate data' as well.

Show me why it energy wouldn't be cheaper. Housing is already cheaper which is why so many english immigrants come here. Food could be cheaper but tories are trying to scaremonger farmers into some sort action by filling their heads with lies over planting trees, or some other bollocks.

I have a bike race to watch and you really have absolutely nothing constructive or positive to add, go have your happy dance over victory over a Welsh nationalist and spend the rest of the day wanging off to your Brit nat mates. chao!

We generate 75% of our electricity from imported gas. The price of which is set in international markets. Independence won't change the price.

Any counter argument?

I have multiple family members who are farmers. Current Welsh Government proposals won't make food cheaper. Replacing productive land with trees will almost certainly make it more expensive in fact.

Still waiting on that 'accurate data'.

Obviously we can take advantage of that brexit bonus an buy cheap lamb from New Zealand. You must be so proud of that one, wasn't it you signing their carbon footprint praises?

As for "accurate data" as the gentleman that I am, after you....

My numbers are from the ONS. https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsect...

I took a pre-COVID figure. We're currently running a deficit of about £20bn a year.

You claimed 'accurate data' would produce a different figure.

I'm still waiting.

You have also provided precisely no evidence to back up your claim that the cost of living would fall post independence.

Have you got any?

Rich_cb wrote:

The difference between tax raised in Wales and public spending in Wales is approximately £15bn. Wales is a net exporter of electricity but roughly 3/4 of that is generated from imported gas. Clearly that's not sustainable in the long term. Even in the short term gas power stations are relatively cheap to build so the potential for arbitrage over rUK would be minimal. As for water, Yes Wales estimate that exports of our dwr generate £1bn in profits per year. If we assume that a future Welsh government could claim all of that we'd still be £14bn short. How do you propose making up that shortfall? How do you propose bringing down the cost of living? Countries with low cost of living also have low wages given that the two are intrinsically linked. I'm assuming you're not proposing a huge wage cut for those of us who actually live here?

As I said, come back with "accurate date", not your opinion or estimates. As I stated, this is impossible to do, yet you're still wanging on about it for some bizarre reason.  Given you don't understand your own question of cost of living, nor previous responses, so this is getting tedious.

What will the tax revenue in an independent Cymru be? You'll need this figure to ensure that you can calculate any deficit correctly? You will need to know how many english immigrants will move out. You do not have this information. You do not have accurate data to base current tax revenues, HMRC estimates.

Also come back to me with accurate revenues from water. Accurate figures for Crown Estates. Accurate figures for reshaped tourism. Accurate figures on tax rates (business, income and inheritance). Accurate figures for the shift in industry. You clearly have this information and are holding it back for the slam dunk!

Should I draw your attention to the levels of borrowing in england before suggesting that borrowing is an option for an independent Cymru? Should I draw your attention to the fact that any borrowing that Cymru has is gifted to us by westminster? Should I talk about Barnett again?

It is a waste of time trying to compare a future Welsh economy with the failed english one, especially  as one to hold it up as something to aim for.

And again, surely another brexit of the chants is apposite in that at the end of the day we'll be making our own decisions.

I'm also surprised that you demand this level of detail for an independent Cymru but sold UK down the river on a simple Yes/No referendum that was sold on lies. #interesting

You're the one that promised more 'accurate' figures.

I've produced ONS statistics showing an annual deficit of £20bn.

The ball is in your court now.

Either produce your own figures or explain how an independent Wales finances a £20bn annual deficit on a GDP of about £80bn.

I promised no such thing. Bring the quote. I am fully aware it is impossible to provide, you're the one  trying to bring "accurate data" to the table.

You can't predict Welsh revenues beyond independence.

ONS can't provide accurate Welsh revenues post independence.

I can't predict accurate Welsh revenues post independence.

Much in the same way that westminster struggles to accurately provide data for future interest rates or inflation rates. It's imfuckingpossible!

Who could have predicted the scale of economic destruction from your beholden brexit? Not your farming family, that's for sure.

Why are you demanding data, from me, that you can't supply?

My position all along has been that Wales runs a large annual deficit.

I've provided evidence to back this up.

You claimed that "accurate data" would reduce that shortfall.

You've provided precisely no evidence of this.

Kindly do so.

Is that a promise of providing accurate data or pointing out that accurate data is needed?

Either way you'd still have to provide some evidence that accurate data has not been provided even if you're incapable of actually providing any data yourself.

I'm waiting.

No I don't. You haven't.