Telegraph admits publishing "erroneous" Strava data — corrects story claiming "death trap" cyclists are hitting "52mph" while chasing London segments; Giro d'Italia helmet row; Richmond Park Strava segment flagged as hazardous + more on the live blog

Who are the people who can't hear electric vehicles approaching? Other car drivers, I imagine.

While there's no aggressively loud engine revving, I've never experienced electric vehicles as being hard to hear.

momove wrote:

Who are the people who can't hear electric vehicles approaching? Other car drivers, I imagine. While there's no aggressively loud engine revving, I've never experienced electric vehicles as being hard to hear.

Whether or not a vehicle is silent should be irrelevant - people need to look before crossing a road or performing a maneouvre if using a vehicle. If someone is only listening out for loud engines, then they're likely to step into the path of a cyclist or EV.

hawkinspeter wrote:

Whether or not a vehicle is silent should be irrelevant - people need to look before crossing a road or performing a maneouvre if using a vehicle. If someone is only listening out for loud engines, then they're likely to step into the path of a cyclist or EV.

Yeah, but they don't look, do they?  And they do regularly step out in front of cyclists (unless I turned invisible and didn't notice).

In a sense, this study is just exactly what everyone was saying a few years ago about the lack of engine noise from EV (remember when the idea was doing the rounds to add fake engine noise?  Have your EV sound like a ICE car, or like the Millennium Falcon…).

brooksby wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Whether or not a vehicle is silent should be irrelevant - people need to look before crossing a road or performing a maneouvre if using a vehicle. If someone is only listening out for loud engines, then they're likely to step into the path of a cyclist or EV.

Yeah, but they don't look, do they?  And they do regularly step out in front of cyclists (unless I turned invisible and didn't notice).

In a sense, this study is just exactly what everyone was saying a few years ago about the lack of engine noise from EV (remember when the idea was doing the rounds to add fake engine noise?  Have your EV sound like a ICE car, or like the Millennium Falcon…).

Personally, I think adding fake engine noise is a mistake - it's almost validating the idea that people can cross the road without looking and besides which, it ignores the fact that cyclists don't often make engine noises (brrrm brrrm)

As others have suggested, it may be noise is not all of it, possibly not even the main factor (haven't checked the report yet).  I could imagine it does play a role sometimes (by introspection at least one person does "look with their ears" - at least I seem to catch myself using sound to cue how much visual attention I allocate).

Anyway, this is all a good opportunity to consider sonic skeuomorphs again - or "one vehicle to the tune of another".  Bring on Trotify!

Ding Ding, I'm a bicycle!

lonpfrb wrote:

Ding Ding, I'm a bicycle!

I sometimes call out "ding ding" instead of using a bell to warn pedestrians on a shared path. I tend to go for "beep beep" if they're in the road or for the very worst non-looking offenders, I'll shout a loud "oi!" at them until they look round (whilst amending my speed/direction so I can avoid them if they don't respond).

brooksby wrote:

(remember when the idea was doing the rounds to add fake engine noise?  Have your EV sound like a ICE car, or like the Millennium Falcon…).

I thought it is now standard to add artificial noise to electric cars at low speeds? Certainly I've noticed electric cars making a noise I have assumed to be added. Nothing as outlandish as fake ICE exhaust noise or the Millennium Falcon, but just a generic sci-fi-esque whine. 

Logically both internal and external noise should be flexible/programmable. Tyre noise is included.

Millennium Falcon it is then..

Your choice of:

Imperial March from Star Wars

Top Gear theme ("Jessica" by the Allman Brothers Band)

Born to be Wild - Steppenwolf

Driving in my car - Madness

Postman Pat theme

Crazy Frog

?

hawkinspeter wrote:

momove wrote:

Who are the people who can't hear electric vehicles approaching? Other car drivers, I imagine. While there's no aggressively loud engine revving, I've never experienced electric vehicles as being hard to hear.

Whether or not a vehicle is silent should be irrelevant - people need to look before crossing a road or performing a maneouvre if using a vehicle. If someone is only listening out for loud engines, then they're likely to step into the path of a cyclist or EV.

It's also about silent approach of vehicles to people who are not looking and may be standing - for example in shared space areas.

One user group concerned are visually impaired. of course.

AIUI EU regs are audible warning required at less than 30kph, as that is approximately the speed where road noise dips beneath the chosen minimum threshold.

It seems very sensible.

mattw wrote:

It's also about silent approach of vehicles to people who are not looking and may be standing - for example in shared space areas.

One user group concerned are visually impaired. of course.

AIUI EU regs are audible warning required at less than 30kph, as that is approximately the speed where road noise dips beneath the chosen minimum threshold.

It seems very sensible.

Shared space areas are problematic for blind people anyhow, so just adding some fake noise to EVs is unlikely to help them feel safe (probably textured surfaces are required so they can tell when they're at the edges).

My main complaint against having fake EV noises is that logically it doesn't seem to make much sense when we have other silent traffic (scooters, cyclists, joggers), and the urban environment is noisy enough without adding fake noises. It doesn't surprise me that more people are turning to using headphones to deal with noise anxiety due to the constant traffic noise that we're subjected to.

momove wrote:

Who are the people who can't hear electric vehicles approaching? Other car drivers, I imagine. While there's no aggressively loud engine revving, I've never experienced electric vehicles as being hard to hear.

If only people would look with their eyes and not their ears, it wouldn't matter if they were as quiet as maglev trains.

Hearing impaired, deaf and deaf-blind for a start.

And hearing impaired may be a condition like tinnitus (roughly a constant or intermittent self-generated noise when something in the hearing system does not work properly), or many others.

momove wrote:

Who are the people who can't hear electric vehicles approaching? Other car drivers, I imagine. While there's no aggressively loud engine revving, I've never experienced electric vehicles as being hard to hear.

I can think of a couple of times been seriously caught out...once an electric bus...there was a bit of wind noise but merging lanes and what I believe motorcyclists call "a lifesaver" saved me...another time riding thru a car park (in these parts a lot of shared paths follow rail lines and disappear in car parks) passed an electric Honda on the left as was slowing and indicating right presumably having spotted an empty bay...30 secs or so later as I came to exit the car park again shoulder check and driver hadn't turned and car was a metre or so behind me and heading to pass... just yesterday out walking the doggo I was looking but passed by a virtually silent (no tyre noise) Tesla and driver was intent on using the acceleration that comes with electric propulsion as weaved thru set of islands that don't slow modern cars down...the acceleration as well as the silence was what drew my attention as being different to an SUV or sports car

True. However, this does suggest that a significant factor in the much higher risk of a pedestrian being struck by the driver of an electric car is that they didn't hear it coming / didn't look before stepping into the road. These cars tend to be heavier due to the added weight of batteries (and a motor in the case of hybrids) so may well cause more injuries at the same speed. Hopefully people will learn to look properly before crossing the road, though I'm not hopeful bearing in mind how many I see glued to phones. 

I can't see the extra mass making a lot of difference. The shape and rigidity of whatever part hits you are surely going to have a much bigger influence on the severity of injuries. 

What _really_ irked me about the article was the phrase "eco-friendly cars...".

I'm expecting "the quiet man"  to now call for "causing death by quiet driving" to be made an offence.

Perhaps "Emit elsewhere"?  Or "slightly better for the environment in some ways but maybe worse in others"* ?  Or "new tech fixes old tech" - dodge issues with a current technology / find a "new stretch of road" by switching to another.  Which of course will come with its own problems, more or less further down the road!

* Whatever other issues there are with new "green tech" one issue it doesn't seem to address is being able to produce the raw materials in a sustainable manner, due to continued large-scale requirements for concrete and good-quality steels.  And as ever Jevon's paradox may apply.

Mr Hoopdriver wrote:

What _really_ irked me about the article was the phrase "eco-friendly cars...".

I'm expecting "the quiet man"  to now call for "causing death by quiet driving" to be made an offence.

The quiet man is currently gurgling as he has risen to the surface of the political toilet for the third time before being flushed away to the memory hole of  history.

& not 'accidents' either!

'Younger drivers being less experienced' So is the driving test not strict enough? or doesn't cover not hitting pedestrians?!

Maybe it's the touted 'insane' acceleration away from traffic lights etc?

I love my bike wrote:

& not 'accidents' either!

'Younger drivers being less experienced' So is the driving test not strict enough? or doesn't cover not hitting pedestrians?!

Maybe it's the touted 'insane' acceleration away from traffic lights etc?

I suspect the acceleration. The raw data should make it obvious, if the Nissan Leaf is hitting pedestrians at a similar rate or much lower rate than Teslas.

My wife drives a Leaf, and while the acceleration is more than adequate, it's an easy car to drive slowly.

brooksby wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/21/electric-cars-more...

gRauniad wrote:

[...] the vehicles are much quieter than cars with combustion engines, making them harder to hear, especially in towns and cities.

Worth investigation but at the more dangerous speeds (20mph and up) doesn't road noise dominate?   So presumably both ICE and electric vehicles are a similiar volume?

Ime that's the case, at 30mph there's very little difference in most ice cars to evs, road noise, once past you yes the engine exhaust makes an ice louder, but you can see them then.

When they're travelling milk float speeds it's harder to hear them approach, above other ice noise

Whether it's novelty factor as they're easier to spot I do think Tesla drivers close pass alot though.

Similar tyres say yes..

Yes, which is why EU regs apply below I think 30kph.

The research is nonsense as for the last few years, EV have had to have noise generators when travelling at low speeds so people can hear them coming. The research is from 2018 when EVs didn't have such.... I know as my first EV was new in 2018..... it was great fun creeping up on Peds in car parks who couldn't be bothered to look up from their phones.

You would have to be stupid or on the phone....same thing some might say.... to get caught out by an EV in 2024. 

I can think of a number of possible reasons for this which could do with some research:
- Yes many peds do seem to rely on hearing. Very few do a shoulder check before crossing a side road; so much so that I've taken to calling out 'Electric car?' as I manoeuvre round them . . .
- Potential faster acceleration which - especially if the vehicle 'looks' slow and heavy (SUV, van) - might well take someone not expecting it by surprise.
- Maybe type of driver? Interesting the article mentions youth. Possibly also a particular drivist attitude. Lots of e-cars are now SUV types.
- One that worries me when cycling too: more 'tech'. Both in terms of screens to look at or touch for controls, both distracting; and also proto-self-drive 'safety' stuff. The latter raises the concern that people might not realise they have it (keep in lane really scary in that possibility!), might not understand how it works, or might rely on it too much and not pay proper attention.
Whatever, if statistically significant it certainly needs looking into, especially the last, as this could well become an issue in its own right.

Another factor that should not be overlooked is that cars are getting increasingly wider so they will invariably be closer to the pavement.

- Yes many peds do seem to rely on hearing. Very few do a shoulder check before crossing a side road; so much so that I've taken to calling out 'Electric car?' as I manoeuvre round them . . .

The HWC was updated, so maybe you should anticipate & let them have priority (?)

Not sure what an observant ped should do if it's a Tesla approaching; eye contact is even more meaningless!