German Olympic cycling coach caught on TV making racist comment during men’s time trial

Bmblbzzz wrote:

"Criticism of a nationality is clearly not racist." 

Correct but wrong. Terms like Frog, Kraut, Godon, les rosbifs, are not racist but they are intented to be offensive descriptors of groups of people as one homogenous mass. Whether that group is a nation, a race, a culture or even something participatory such as cyclists, is actually not relevant.

Does that include terms such as "cheese-eating surrender-monkey?"

Was their a reason he would have stayed anyway? Track cycling, maybe the Para's I suppose unless his remit was only the road teams. 

Also anyway know his official tilte. Some publications state Official, some Coach, some a Sporting Director.(as if multiple). some THE Sporting Director as if he is the main person, and the linked article above states "Boss".

portec wrote:

Is this really racism?

Yes, yes it is.

portec wrote:

Incidently I doubt the riders he was referring to have ever ridden a camel.

And that is exactly why it is racist.

I think you missed my point. Riding a camel is not connected to race or ethnicity.

Sausage-eaters, sauerkrauts?  Them neither.

portec wrote:

I think you missed my point. Riding a camel is not connected to race or ethnicity.

And yet he wouldn't have used that phrase if the riders were European/American etc.

You could use the phrase "tea-drinkers" (deliberately non-offensive example) to refer to British people even though drinking tea is also not connected to race or ethnicity.

I agree but I'm struggling to see how that's an argument against what I'm saying. If the riders were European/American there are other derogatory phrases that could be used to the same effect. Or if they were from any other part of the world. I'm not going to say any of them but I think we could all name a few. And like the comment made by the German coach, few if any are racially-based, but more to do with culture or nationality. And of course they might still be derogatory, disrespectful, etc.

I'm not sure where the line is between race/culture/nationality and I'm not convinced that it is meaningful. If someone uses derogatory terms that rely on the target's culture or nationality, then most of the time, I'd consider that to be racist.

I disagree with your second sentence. Criticism of a nationality is clearly not racist. If somebody criticises British people what race(s) are they criticising? We have people from all races born here and living here. To a lesser extent it's the same for culture. Many cultural norms are shared by multiple racial groups. Some cultural norms are shared by ALL racial groups.

Another point I'd make is that intent matters. I can see the point people are trying to make but that point heavily relies on assuming the German coach's intent to be racist. Perhaps I'm overly trusting and too "glass half full" but I don't think many people would intentionally shout out a racist comment in public at the biggest sporting event in the world where there are TV cameras nearby broadcasting the event to every country in the world. I think what most likely happened is that in the heat of the moment in a high-pressure environment he made a stupid comment without thinking that some people have chosen to interpret as racist, based on assumptions derived from a few sentences on a web site.

I don't think that intent is that important as there's a lot of ingrained racist attitudes in cultures, so people can use phrases such as "yellow peril" without realising the history and meaning of the term.

Again, I don't think that it's particularly useful to differentiate between what constitutes a race or a culture as the whole basis of splitting up humans into races is itself flawed.

"Camel jockey" is a well known ethnic slur for an Arab.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/camel_jockey

I have no idea why you're trying to defend this, but you're wrong. Please stop.

Maybe it is to you. Not to me. And what exactly do you think I'm defending? If it's what I think you're trying to say that's sinking pretty low and I have nothing to say to you.

portec wrote:

Maybe it is to you. Not to me. And what exactly do you think I'm defending? If it's what I think you're trying to say that's sinking pretty low and I have nothing to say to you.

You are defending clear and obvious racism and you're either very stupid or racist yourself to think you're not. "I doubt any of them have ever ridden a camel"? Oh so can we call Arabs "towelheads" on the basis that actually they don't technically wear towels on their heads? No good getting on your high horse, you've been rumbled and called, move on.

portec wrote:

Maybe it is to you. Not to me. And what exactly do you think I'm defending? If it's what I think you're trying to say that's sinking pretty low and I have nothing to say to you.

I think you're defending racist language.

It's not about whether it is to me or to you. It's a well-known slur and is therefore highly likely to be offensive to those it's aimed at.

How on earth is 'heat of the moment' an excuse. 

portec wrote:

And like the comment made by the German coach, few if any are racially-based, but more to do with culture or nationality.

The point is that "race" is a cultural construct, not a biological or genetic category, and so comments about, say, skin colour, are meant to be offensive towards particular groups of people, just like comments about shagging sheep or anything of this kind.

portec wrote:

I think you missed my point. Riding a camel is not connected to race or ethnicity.

really? not a term that he would use to describe any arab, but not europeans. Quite clearly the basis for his choice of words was purely the ethnicity of the two riders ahead of his rider.

Or are you suggesting he is not making an assumption based on their race and instead knows for a fact that both these riders own or race camels?

That seems quite implausible.

wycombewheeler wrote:

Or are you suggesting he is not making an assumption based on their race and instead knows for a fact that both these riders own or race camels?

That seems quite implausible.

From my first post:

Incidently I doubt the riders he was referring to have ever ridden a camel.

Dude. It's time to stop and reflect. If you don't get it, it's time to put the effort in to make sure you do get it. Otherwise you are part of the problem (even if not deliberately). 

Assuming you're UK based Brit(ish) is a great book that explores subtle racism here. It's a good read. https://www.waterstones.com/book/brit-ish/afua-hirsch/9781784705039

If you're having the "was that racist?" conversation, then chances are you know the answer deep down. Appreciating that you didn't make the comment in question, but since you seem to want to die on this hill, this is you:
 

There comes a point where the sensible choice is to step away from your keyboard and stop using it is a shovel.

Whether he intended it to be racist is irrelevent.  It is how the comment was perceived and there are few people that would disagree that referring to Arabic riders as Camel Drivers is anything other than derogatory.

Is throwing a banana at a black footballer therefore not racist if you happen to know for a fact that they don't like bananas?

This is not about riding a camel, manifestly. This is about referring to an ethnicity/nationality/other by association to an activity (typically involving animals) in a stereotypical, demonstrably false and derogative way.

portec wrote:

I think you missed my point. Riding a camel is not connected to race or ethnicity.

Neither is throwing spears...

Yes.