interesting article on discs in the pro peloton

abudhabiChris wrote:

surly_by_name wrote:

I am astounded by the number of pros who post about this subject on this forum and elsewhere. I mean, surely that must be the reason so many posts express concern (or even a view, frankly) about the impact of the introduction of disc brakes on the pro peleton? You are all the secret pros, I can't wait until you reveal your true identities, I've got my suspicions about a couple of you. (In some cases, your limited grasp of the English language suggests it's a second language, I am guessing one of you is a certain famous Spanish climber with a penchant for home grown steak and a signature victory salute!)

Actually a lot of us race and the issues are much the same as for the pros - possibly worse as we are more likely to be in fields with a wider cross-section of abilities and experience.

Exactly this, if you race in any BC race (or any other cycling federation for that matter) you're subject to the UCI rules, which at the moment are no discs for road racing. It affects more than the 1% of riders who are pro's.

Chances are most people race/train/ride on the same bike, or have commonality across them all for spares etc. They won't be going discs in a hurry for what will essentially be 2 complete new bikes.

glynr36 wrote:

Exactly this, if you race in any BC race (or any other cycling federation for that matter) you're subject to the UCI rules, which at the moment are no discs for road racing. It affects more than the 1% of riders who are pro's.

Chances are most people race/train/ride on the same bike, or have commonality across them all for spares etc. They won't be going discs in a hurry for what will essentially be 2 complete new bikes.

Glynr36 - fair point (although I suspect the number of pros is less than 1%). Maybe the two will "decouple" - you can't ride tyres wider than a 33 in a UCI cross race (and they occasionally wander around with a little plastic block to measure tread width) but BC events allow all sorts of bikes, with all sorts of tyre widths, to be ridden.

abudhabiChris - on other hand, I am not so swayed by different ability levels argument. Braking is only one of a number of ability issues to deal with, and even then not a very important one. In my limited experience of road racing in BC events, handling (including sitting in a bunch), cornering and sprinting in a straight line are higher up the list of skills likely to cause crashes by virtue of different ability levels than braking.

So if the point of the article is to show that it may be inadvisable to buy a disc equipped road bike if you only have one bike and you want to use that bike to compete in BC sanctioned events, it has some merit. Otherwise I think the article itself is irrelevant.

hsiaolc wrote:

It is sad.
They want to promote cycling sport to the masses but most people don't give a damn about tour de france unless your town or city have a interest in it.

Yet the industry is still backwards and close to ignorance. To argue against disc brakes is just simply stupid. The difference is day and night.

When I started commuting to work daily two years ago it was a shock to me the lack of stopping power in the v or rim brake compared to disc especially being an avid mountain biker.

I still remember first day going back home and I was riding fast down the road with a car right in front. Suddenly the car had to do a sudden stop and me being inexperienced on the road I was following the car too close behind and with the v brake I had I knew I had no chance or stopping. In that split second I thought I was going to lose my new Canyon bike on the first day. Instinct valued the bike more than my life and I took evasive action and swerved left of the car not caring if another car was going to hit me or not. Luckily nothing was on my left. However, I know if I had disc brakes I am certain I will have the confidence to stop in time and maybe use my body to hit lightly on the back of the car.

Not to mention the stopping power of the v or rim brake in the rain is ridiculously lacking. So lacking sometimes I thought I had no brakes on when I am going down hill.

I debated about buying disc brake bike for a while because I wanted to wait for Canyon to come up with a disc model for the road. But I couldn't wait any longer because I feel that my life is worth a lot more so I went ahead with Rose Xeon disc brake.

My commute to work now is a joy. Every time I brake it puts a smile to my face because not only it is so controlled but also because the amount of power it has and not just raw power but modulated power. Which also in turn puts a lot less strain on my hands and I only need to pull slightly on the lever to bikes stops gently and slowly without using too much force and very controlled.

Personally I find it sad for those people who likes to live in the past. Or lets say no vision. Time to move on really. If those who doesn't then I don't really care because I care about my life and I am happy that disc brakes that are finally coming to the road especially for general public. Not sure why it took so long either when it is part of the mountain biking gear for a while already.

Yes but this article (and thread) is about the pro riders and mechanics opinions about disc brakes. Most of them don't give a damn about your commute!
Nobody disputes that discs have a shorter stoping distance, and I'm sure they are just great on your commter bike, like they are on my MTB, but that realhy is not the point here. The point is whether they have a place right now in a close grouped fast moving peloton, something you have perhaps not experienced?

hsiaolc wrote:

To argue against disc brakes is just simply stupid. The difference is day and night.

When I started commuting to work daily two years ago it was a shock to me the lack of stopping power in the v or rim brake compared to disc especially being an avid mountain biker.

I was doing a red route on my canti equipped cross bike alongside my brother in law, who was on his full suss mountain bike.

We swapped bikes out of interest. At the first corner I almost went over the handlebars as I slammed on the discs as if I was still on the cross bike.

Yes, there is a big difference, but much of that can be mitigated by simply being used to the brakes you have and using them accordingly. While I was on the cross bike I was doing similar speeds to my brother in law on the red route, and faster on the blue, so the woeful cantis can't have been holding me back too much.

Flying Scot wrote:

Consider:

Pro's don't give a shit about wearing rims out
Pro's are much lighter than your average rider so don't need they extra power

That's missing the point by some margin....

Flying Scot wrote:

...they will ride whatever they are given by the team sponsor

True

Flying Scot wrote:

Why I don't think its imminent:

All 3 big names need a road race disc product to push, and none really have one, Campag have nothing at all.

Two of the three have product which is probably suitable now, and the other is rumoured to have one out next year, but as the UCI won't allow it in road-racing that's largely irrelevent.

Flying Scot wrote:

The rules are super conservative, this would be a biggie, I see frame rules being relaxed first.

You may well be right on that.

Super Domestique wrote:

How on Earth is the view of someone who works in the sport and quotes from racers irrelevant?
That is like saying the opinion of a cycling journalist is irrelevant!

I take bike mechanics naysaying discs based on supposition like I take panelbeaters bemoaning better highway design because they maybe get less work out of it. Sure it's the same overall industry, but that doesn't make any one individual's view gospel. Give me stats on the occurrence of injury due to flailing rotors, say as compared to chainrings. Let's face it: the rotor is pretty small, tucked in behind the triangle or fork, surrounded by a much larger rim, and only on one side of the bike. You'd have to be ***spectacularly unlucky*** to have a crash result in a debilitating rotor-related injury. Where do most crashes happen? In bunch sprints or on the flat, where no-one's on the brakes so no heat issues. Not when descending cols.

David Arthur wrote:

Disc brakes may or may not happen in the pro peloton, but let's at least have a proper debate about their pros and cons and keep all this technophobe stuff out of the debate

If there is to be a proper debate about it then, as you suggest, it should feature both the pros and cons. But if we take your suggestion and unilaterally leave out all the anti disc brake views (the 'technophobe stuff') then all that will leave is the pro disc brake opinions.

Not much of a debate when only one side of an argument is allowed.

HalfWheeler wrote:

David Arthur wrote:

Disc brakes may or may not happen in the pro peloton, but let's at least have a proper debate about their pros and cons and keep all this technophobe stuff out of the debate

If there is to be a proper debate about it then, as you suggest, it should feature both the pros and cons. But if we take your suggestion and unilaterally leave out all the anti disc brake views (the 'technophobe stuff') then all that will leave is the pro disc brake opinions.

Not much of a debate when only one side of an argument is allowed.

Well, if we're worried about pro racing adopting disc brakes (which I'm not at all) then issues such as weight, axle standards and disc rotor sizes for wheel changes - though most wheel changes are from the team car, not Mavic neutral support - and possibly aerodynamics, would be the cons that are currently preventing its immediate adoption, and need to be discussed

But issues such as burning disc rotors and braking distance differences aren't cons, they're not even issues in my view, but take people away from the main issues of the debate

"But issues such as burning disc rotors and braking distance differences aren't cons, they're not even issues in my view, but take people away from the main issues of the debate"

Ah, so that's what decides what an issue is, whether it has your seal of approval or not.

Silly me...

HalfWheeler wrote:

"But issues such as burning disc rotors and braking distance differences aren't cons, they're not even issues in my view, but take people away from the main issues of the debate"

Ah, so that's what decides what an issue is, whether it has your seal of approval or not.

Silly me...

Well, no, for the burning disc rotors topics, it's a view based on evidence. You might not agree, that's fair enough, but imho it isn't something we need to concern ourselves with in this debate

As for braking distances, KiwiMike hits the nail on the head. The disparity of braking power isn't what causes crashes, and never will be. If someone in front of you suddenly grabs a handful of brake, and you're not paying attention, you're riding into the back of them. Or veering off into the hedge. There are many many causes of crashes in road races

mtbtomo wrote:

Its no different to group rides / peletons now - not all brakes stop as well as others, some on carbon rims, some on alloy rims, some on Shimano calipers, some on non-branded etc etc. Its down to the rider and how they ride responsibly in a group.

Slamming on the brakes in a group will cause carnage whether they're calipers or discs and regardless of what type of brakes the guy behind has.

THIS.

The last word on the canard-strawman-hyperbolic-discs-will-kill-us-all argument that a difference in stopping power amongst ***professionals*** will matter. You can't say that the weakest part of the whole momentum-shedding game is the matchbox-sized interface 'twixt rubber and road, then claim that no, it's the thingy slowing the rim down that'll get ya.

Do half-disc'd-half-canti 'cross racers pile into each other at every corner? No. No they do not.

I ran New Zealand's UCI-sanctioned MTB race series for three years. In that time we had loads of crashes, DH and XC - but I don't recall a single injury from discs. Broken limbs, concussions etc yes, sliced up folks no. And in 15 years of riding / falling off MTB's along with hundreds of friends and acquaintances, I can't recall a single disc-related injury.

It's just not an issue.

@ KiwiMike

How long is a mtb peloton (for want of a better description)? One rider then a gap of 10 or 20 feet, then a small group, another gap, this time 5 seconds or so, more riders with gaps of 2 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, etc, etc?

Rather different in a road race. Scores of riders inches apart, numbering 80 in an amatuer event, double that in a pro race, overlapping, travelling up to 30 mph on the flat (44 ft per second). If the guy that is 12 inches in front of you can stop at half the distance you can then it stands to reason that there is potential for near misses or actual crashes

My guess is that there will be disc brakes in the pro peloton one day but all the teams will make the switch in the same season.

HalfWheeler wrote:

@ KiwiMike

How long is a mtb peloton (for want of a better description)? One rider then a gap of 10 or 20 feet, then a small group, another gap, this time 5 seconds or so, more riders with gaps of 2 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, etc, etc?

Rather different in a road race. Scores of riders inches apart, numbering 80 in an amatuer event, double that in a pro race, overlapping, travelling up to 30 mph on the flat (44 ft per second). If the guy that is 12 inches in front of you can stop at half the distance you can then it stands to reason that there is potential for near misses or actual crashes

My guess is that there will be disc brakes in the pro peloton one day but all the teams will make the switch in the same season.

As others have said, why isn't this stopping power disparity an issue now - someone on carbon rims, in the wet, on old pads vs. someone on brand-new alu rims, with hydraulic rim brakes and Kool-Stop Salmons. Hell, compare Stock Sora's with dual-pivot Ultegras. Massive difference. What if the person in front has been feathering their brakes/drying their rims 'cos they know a turn is coming?

Sorry, I just do not buy this pile-ups-a'-comin' doomsaying. If someone's 12" in front of you and they grab a handful at 30MPH, it doesn't matter WHAT kind of brake they or you are using - you're all going down.

KiwiMike wrote:

HalfWheeler wrote:

@ KiwiMike

How long is a mtb peloton (for want of a better description)? One rider then a gap of 10 or 20 feet, then a small group, another gap, this time 5 seconds or so, more riders with gaps of 2 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, etc, etc?

Rather different in a road race. Scores of riders inches apart, numbering 80 in an amatuer event, double that in a pro race, overlapping, travelling up to 30 mph on the flat (44 ft per second). If the guy that is 12 inches in front of you can stop at half the distance you can then it stands to reason that there is potential for near misses or actual crashes

My guess is that there will be disc brakes in the pro peloton one day but all the teams will make the switch in the same season.

As others have said, why isn't this stopping power disparity an issue now - someone on carbon rims, in the wet, on old pads vs. someone on brand-new alu rims, with hydraulic rim brakes and Kool-Stop Salmons. Hell, compare Stock Sora's with dual-pivot Ultegras. Massive difference. What if the person in front has been feathering their brakes/drying their rims 'cos they know a turn is coming?

Sorry, I just do not buy this pile-ups-a'-comin' doomsaying. If someone's 12" in front of you and they grab a handful at 30MPH, it doesn't matter WHAT kind of brake they or you are using - you're all going down.

Because the disc brakes ar SO much more powerful. Yes, there all sorts of different brakes and rims in the bunch right now but those differences pale in comparison to the difference hydraulic disc brakes will bring.

In fact it's kinda the point. Why the switch? Because they are so much more powerful, because your braking distances are so much shorter. That's why it's being considered!

You can not say, in the same breath, "it won't change a thing in the bunch" then say "oh disc brakes are amazing, so much better than puny road brakes".

Look, I've got some 1st hand experience from this. My winter rig has shockingly bad brakes. Can't afford to replace them at the mo. It makes life on a club run, erm...lets just say interesting! I'm getting away with it on a Sunday run. Wouldn't try it in a chain gang or road race.

As I've said before, the pro bunch will change to them but they'll all do it in the same season. And that will probably be within the next 3 years, 5 maximum.

HalfWheeler wrote:

In fact it's kinda the point. Why the switch? Because they are so much more powerful [...] That's why it's being considered!

No, no it's not.

fukawitribe wrote:

HalfWheeler wrote:

In fact it's kinda the point. Why the switch? Because they are so much more powerful [...] That's why it's being considered!

No, no it's not.

Disc brakes are much better (in terms of stopping power) than road caliper brakes. This much is obvious. But you're saying that they're being considered because of.....?

HalfWheeler wrote:

fukawitribe wrote:

HalfWheeler wrote:

In fact it's kinda the point. Why the switch? Because they are so much more powerful [...] That's why it's being considered!

No, no it's not.

Disc brakes are much better (in terms of stopping power) than road caliper brakes. This much is obvious. But you're saying that they're being considered because of.....?

Consistency, modulation and power. Brute force power on it's own isn't what makes them appealing.

HalfWheeler wrote:

Look, I've got some 1st hand experience from this. My winter rig has shockingly bad brakes. Can't afford to replace them at the mo. It makes life on a club run, erm...lets just say interesting! I'm getting away with it on a Sunday run. Wouldn't try it in a chain gang or road race.

If you haven't already, you should change the pads. Clarke make some really great pads that you can buy for under a tenner from CRC. That alone accounts for 80% of the difference between good and bad brakes. Better brake callipers aren't that expensive either, really. I bought second hand Ultegra callipers (in old school shiny silver) for £25, but you can get SRAM Apex, or Shimano Tiagra/R450/R650 brand new for under £40.

adrianoconnor wrote:

HalfWheeler wrote:

Look, I've got some 1st hand experience from this. My winter rig has shockingly bad brakes. Can't afford to replace them at the mo. It makes life on a club run, erm...lets just say interesting! I'm getting away with it on a Sunday run. Wouldn't try it in a chain gang or road race.

If you haven't already, you should change the pads. Clarke make some really great pads that you can buy for under a tenner from CRC. That alone accounts for 80% of the difference between good and bad brakes. Better brake callipers aren't that expensive either, really. I bought second hand Ultegra callipers (in old school shiny silver) for £25, but you can get SRAM Apex, or Shimano Tiagra/R450/R650 brand new for under £40.

Ach...it's a cross bike so it's got cantis. I'm already on the third pair of cantis. Replaced the blocks only a few months ago. It's, supposedly, 105 standard of cantis. My dual pivot 105s can stop with half as much braking distance.

Xmas is coming up, need new pedals and shoes, club fees are due as is BC and race licence fees...