Live blog: Leave Vs Remain poll – Near Miss of The Day; Cycle path apple tree vandals offered olive branch; woefully-timed overtake by driving instructor; 'how to take on a club 10’, ‘Tour of Pembrokshire tractor incident case dismissed, Canyon e-racing+

brooksby wrote:

On the ongoing driving instructor rants: how much extra tuition does an average person have to undergo before they're allowed to drive a bus?

 I 've been on the bus a lot lately, and to me it seems dangerous for a double-decker bus to follow a cyclist at about ten feet separation (at most) (as First's drivers seem to do)

Bus drivers are mostly not taught by government approved instructors, it’s mostly other experienced bus drivers/inspectors. 

WiznaeMe wrote:

brooksby wrote:

On the ongoing driving instructor rants: how much extra tuition does an average person have to undergo before they're allowed to drive a bus?

 I 've been on the bus a lot lately, and to me it seems dangerous for a double-decker bus to follow a cyclist at about ten feet separation (at most) (as First's drivers seem to do)

 

Bus drivers are mostly not taught by government approved instructors, it’s mostly other experienced bus drivers/inspectors. 

 

Ah, so bad driving by bus drivers becomes sort of self reinforcing I guess

ktache wrote:

Unless there is no student under instruction.  I have seen instructors, or at least fully liveried vehicles with one occupant, staring at smart phones, talking on phones and eating pizza, all at different times though.

Last year, there was a driving school vehicle parked at the end of my road, blocking the dropped kerb and illegally and dangerously close to the junction.  When I pointed this out to the driver, they just shrugged.

bigbiker101 wrote:

Canyon... the company that voids your warranty if your bike is used on a Turbo Trainer lauches a team just for Turbo Trainers... WTF

lol! 

burtthebike wrote:

I've had similar experiences, not instructors, of drivers who wait behind you when there is plenty of space to overtake, then pass you at the most dangerous point possible. 

Coming into a village off a NSL single carriageway road with solid double white lines (no overtaking). A car came up behind me and I waved him through - we could both see that the road ahead was competely clear for over 100m. He refused, pointing at the double whites. OK, fair enough.

Anyway, speed limit becomes 30mph and he was still sitting behind me, the road was getting buiser and narrower in the village. And clearly he got bored sitting there at 20mph, overtook on the narrowest bit of road leading into a 90 degree bend in a populated area! WTF?!

So he's not willing to cross double whites, even when completely clear. But he's willing to do a close pass on me at the most dangerous point of the road. Facepalm.

I think the reason drivers sometimes overtake at chicanes or traffic islands is they've sat behind for a bit and "judged" the distances and gaps. So they go through the first one behind you and think "oh actually, there was space there" so they just go through.

crazy-legs wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

I've had similar experiences, not instructors, of drivers who wait behind you when there is plenty of space to overtake, then pass you at the most dangerous point possible. 

Coming into a village off a NSL single carriageway road with solid double white lines (no overtaking). A car came up behind me and I waved him through - we could both see that the road ahead was competely clear for over 100m. He refused, pointing at the double whites. OK, fair enough.

Anyway, speed limit becomes 30mph and he was still sitting behind me, the road was getting buiser and narrower in the village. And clearly he got bored sitting there at 20mph, overtook on the narrowest bit of road leading into a 90 degree bend in a populated area! WTF?!

So he's not willing to cross double whites, even when completely clear. But he's willing to do a close pass on me at the most dangerous point of the road. Facepalm.

I think the reason drivers sometimes overtake at chicanes or traffic islands is they've sat behind for a bit and "judged" the distances and gaps. So they go through the first one behind you and think "oh actually, there was space there" so they just go through.

If you slowed down to 10mph, he could pass legally, probably still wouldn't have though. Maybe Car manufacturers should hire Boeing to give them an automated device, that shouts the highway code at them when needed!

KINGHORN wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

I've had similar experiences, not instructors, of drivers who wait behind you when there is plenty of space to overtake, then pass you at the most dangerous point possible. 

Coming into a village off a NSL single carriageway road with solid double white lines (no overtaking). A car came up behind me and I waved him through - we could both see that the road ahead was competely clear for over 100m. He refused, pointing at the double whites. OK, fair enough.

Anyway, speed limit becomes 30mph and he was still sitting behind me, the road was getting buiser and narrower in the village. And clearly he got bored sitting there at 20mph, overtook on the narrowest bit of road leading into a 90 degree bend in a populated area! WTF?!

So he's not willing to cross double whites, even when completely clear. But he's willing to do a close pass on me at the most dangerous point of the road. Facepalm.

I think the reason drivers sometimes overtake at chicanes or traffic islands is they've sat behind for a bit and "judged" the distances and gaps. So they go through the first one behind you and think "oh actually, there was space there" so they just go through.

 

If you slowed down to 10mph, he could pass legally, probably still wouldn't have though. Maybe Car manufacturers should hire Boeing to give them an automated device, that shouts the highway code at them when needed!

The whole 10mph thing is utter bollocks, it's either safe to pass someone whichever vehicle/width and speed they are going or it isn't, it's a very simple binary answer as to your actions. Can you see far enough ahead that you have enough space to get past with room to spare, that's taking into account the person you are wishing to overtake, the terrain itself, the weather, the speed limit of the road, any entrances/exits/junctions, any chance of livestock/animals, people on foot if there's no footway and so on.

If you can't make the jusgement then it's not safe to get past, that's what hazard perception is all about, the lines in reality are telling you not to do something, they are there to account for the lowest demoninator who are unable to make correct judgements, it should be a case of ensuring everyone who is on the road in a killing machine can make those judgements as close to 100% of the time as possible, every single time they get behind the wheel. The whole process of driving needs a complete revision, it's tantamount to urder that all governments have done fuck all to at the very least retest every few years never mind bring the standard of driving up when learning to something closer to that of an advanced driver.

IMHO part of the problem is the lines themselves, just like most signs, you're taking the thinking and forward planning away from drivers, this has proven not to be a solution to increase safety. Dumbing down driving has proven to be a disaster, drivers are so selfish, lazy, non thinking dangerous pricks for the most part, despite all the tech, bigger/wider tyres, bigger brakes, steering and braking assistance we've seen no real improvement in crashes, in the last few years the KSIs hae gone up on our roads. There are still inexcess of 185,000 killed, seriously and slightly injured every year, despite the airbags, despite the crash protection cells and the features that are supposed to lessen the impact on pedestrians.

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

KINGHORN wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

I've had similar experiences, not instructors, of drivers who wait behind you when there is plenty of space to overtake, then pass you at the most dangerous point possible. 

Coming into a village off a NSL single carriageway road with solid double white lines (no overtaking). A car came up behind me and I waved him through - we could both see that the road ahead was competely clear for over 100m. He refused, pointing at the double whites. OK, fair enough.

Anyway, speed limit becomes 30mph and he was still sitting behind me, the road was getting buiser and narrower in the village. And clearly he got bored sitting there at 20mph, overtook on the narrowest bit of road leading into a 90 degree bend in a populated area! WTF?!

So he's not willing to cross double whites, even when completely clear. But he's willing to do a close pass on me at the most dangerous point of the road. Facepalm.

I think the reason drivers sometimes overtake at chicanes or traffic islands is they've sat behind for a bit and "judged" the distances and gaps. So they go through the first one behind you and think "oh actually, there was space there" so they just go through.

 

If you slowed down to 10mph, he could pass legally, probably still wouldn't have though. Maybe Car manufacturers should hire Boeing to give them an automated device, that shouts the highway code at them when needed!

The whole 10mph thing is utter bollocks, it's either safe to pass someone whichever vehicle/width and speed they are going or it isn't, it's a very simple binary answer as to your actions. Can you see far enough ahead that you have enough space to get past with room to spare, that's taking into account the person you are wishing to overtake, the terrain itself, the weather, the speed limit of the road, any entrances/exits/junctions, any chance of livestock/animals, people on foot if there's no footway and so on.

If you can't make the jusgement then it's not safe to get past, that's what hazard perception is all about, the lines in reality are telling you not to do something, they are there to account for the lowest demoninator who are unable to make correct judgements, it should be a case of ensuring everyone who is on the road in a killing machine can make those judgements as close to 100% of the time as possible, every single time they get behind the wheel. The whole process of driving needs a complete revision, it's tantamount to urder that all governments have done fuck all to at the very least retest every few years never mind bring the standard of driving up when learning to something closer to that of an advanced driver.

IMHO part of the problem is the lines themselves, just like most signs, you're taking the thinking and forward planning away from drivers, this has proven not to be a solution to increase safety. Dumbing down driving has proven to be a disaster, drivers are so selfish, lazy, non thinking dangerous pricks for the most part, despite all the tech, bigger/wider tyres, bigger brakes, steering and braking assistance we've seen no real improvement in crashes, in the last few years the KSIs hae gone up on our roads. There are still inexcess of 185,000 killed, seriously and slightly injured every year, despite the airbags, despite the crash protection cells and the features that are supposed to lessen the impact on pedestrians.

So so much nonsense I’m not sure where to start. So I’ll just say attitude towards other road users is exactly what is driving behaviour. It’s the attitude of it being “them and us” and that the “them” is all evil and always in the wrong. What your talking about is exactly the same as people wanting cyclists to pass a test and complains that cyclists are a menace. 

The vast majority of drivers and cyclists are safe and careful. A minority on both sides are a menace to all. We need to concentrate on attitude and behaviour rather than mode of transport. Good, safe road users need to call for safety for all, not just “us”.  Emotive language like “killing machines” and expecting perfection at all times is not helpful. Even the best drivers make mistakes. It’s part of advanced driver training to be aware that you will make mistakes, but should always be aware of this, leave room for error and learn from these. This is the kind of thing ALL road users need to learn. People make mistakes and you need to leave room. Drivers make close passes, but equally we see time and again cyclists not taking the lane or going down the inside of cars that are indicating. The road is not a battle ground and it is not “them vs us”. Bad drivers need to be stopped, but we all have our part to play, and all need to learn to share space properly. From the drivers who makes the close pass to the 10 twats on a club ride last week who passed me by inches moving at least twice my speed when I was out on my mountain bike.

John Smith wrote:

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

KINGHORN wrote:

crazy-legs wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

I've had similar experiences, not instructors, of drivers who wait behind you when there is plenty of space to overtake, then pass you at the most dangerous point possible. 

Coming into a village off a NSL single carriageway road with solid double white lines (no overtaking). A car came up behind me and I waved him through - we could both see that the road ahead was competely clear for over 100m. He refused, pointing at the double whites. OK, fair enough.

Anyway, speed limit becomes 30mph and he was still sitting behind me, the road was getting buiser and narrower in the village. And clearly he got bored sitting there at 20mph, overtook on the narrowest bit of road leading into a 90 degree bend in a populated area! WTF?!

So he's not willing to cross double whites, even when completely clear. But he's willing to do a close pass on me at the most dangerous point of the road. Facepalm.

I think the reason drivers sometimes overtake at chicanes or traffic islands is they've sat behind for a bit and "judged" the distances and gaps. So they go through the first one behind you and think "oh actually, there was space there" so they just go through.

 

If you slowed down to 10mph, he could pass legally, probably still wouldn't have though. Maybe Car manufacturers should hire Boeing to give them an automated device, that shouts the highway code at them when needed!

The whole 10mph thing is utter bollocks, it's either safe to pass someone whichever vehicle/width and speed they are going or it isn't, it's a very simple binary answer as to your actions. Can you see far enough ahead that you have enough space to get past with room to spare, that's taking into account the person you are wishing to overtake, the terrain itself, the weather, the speed limit of the road, any entrances/exits/junctions, any chance of livestock/animals, people on foot if there's no footway and so on.

If you can't make the jusgement then it's not safe to get past, that's what hazard perception is all about, the lines in reality are telling you not to do something, they are there to account for the lowest demoninator who are unable to make correct judgements, it should be a case of ensuring everyone who is on the road in a killing machine can make those judgements as close to 100% of the time as possible, every single time they get behind the wheel. The whole process of driving needs a complete revision, it's tantamount to urder that all governments have done fuck all to at the very least retest every few years never mind bring the standard of driving up when learning to something closer to that of an advanced driver.

IMHO part of the problem is the lines themselves, just like most signs, you're taking the thinking and forward planning away from drivers, this has proven not to be a solution to increase safety. Dumbing down driving has proven to be a disaster, drivers are so selfish, lazy, non thinking dangerous pricks for the most part, despite all the tech, bigger/wider tyres, bigger brakes, steering and braking assistance we've seen no real improvement in crashes, in the last few years the KSIs hae gone up on our roads. There are still inexcess of 185,000 killed, seriously and slightly injured every year, despite the airbags, despite the crash protection cells and the features that are supposed to lessen the impact on pedestrians.

 

So so much nonsense I’m not sure where to start. So I’ll just say attitude towards other road users is exactly what is driving behaviour. It’s the attitude of it being “them and us” and that the “them” is all evil and always in the wrong. What your talking about is exactly the same as people wanting cyclists to pass a test and complains that cyclists are a menace. 

 

The vast majority of drivers and cyclists are safe and careful. A minority on both sides are a menace to all. We need to concentrate on attitude and behaviour rather than mode of transport. Good, safe road users need to call for safety for all, not just “us”.  Emotive language like “killing machines” and expecting perfection at all times is not helpful. Even the best drivers make mistakes. It’s part of advanced driver training to be aware that you will make mistakes, but should always be aware of this, leave room for error and learn from these. This is the kind of thing ALL road users need to learn. People make mistakes and you need to leave room. Drivers make close passes, but equally we see time and again cyclists not taking the lane or going down the inside of cars that are indicating. The road is not a battle ground and it is not “them vs us”. Bad drivers need to be stopped, but we all have our part to play, and all need to learn to share space properly. From the drivers who makes the close pass to the 10 twats on a club ride last week who passed me by inches moving at least twice my speed when I was out on my mountain bike.

Most of the time, attitude and behaviour doesn't matter so much when you're riding a bike as there's a limit to how much death and destruction you can cause before falling off. "Killing machines" may be emotive, but it's also fairly accurate as you can put a careless person into one and deaths be the result (it literally happens every day).

"Expecting perfection"? No, we don't expect perfection, we expect licensed motorists to TRY to follow the Highway Code as otherwise other people can get hurt. However, there does seem to be a small percentage of drivers that believe that anything that gets in their way needs to be responded to with aggression and there's a larger percentage that believes that they can pay attention to the road whilst using a mobile phone. There's an even larger percentage that believes that speed limits are more like guidelines which I would tend to agree with in some instances, but when coupled with aggression can become lethal.

Regarding the "them and us" attitude - just the other day, I was cycling home on a dual carriageway that goes alongside a cycle path and a motorist believed that it was his god-given duty to shout out of his window at me something incoherent about a cycle path. I later overtook him and he wasn't shouting at the drivers blocking the box junction, so there seems to be some double standards going on here.

Those club riders do sound like twats if they're close passing another vulnerable road user - I always try to leave around a metre or so when passing cyclists (more for a horse). Obviously, if I were to collide with another cyclist, then I'm likely to get hurt (skin in the game) and probably cause damage my bike (which would lead to tears), so there's a strong incentive for me to leave a good safety margin.

crazy-legs wrote:

Coming into a village off a NSL single carriageway road with solid double white lines (no overtaking). A car came up behind me and I waved him through - we could both see that the road ahead was competely clear for over 100m. He refused, pointing at the double whites.

KINGHORN wrote:

If you slowed down to 10mph, he could pass legally, probably still wouldn't have though.

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The whole 10mph thing is utter bollocks, it's either safe to pass someone whichever vehicle/width and speed they are going or it isn't

Well except he wasn't talking about safe but the legallity:

Quote:

(6) Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so—

(f)in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/26/made

burtthebike wrote:

I've had similar experiences, not instructors, of drivers who wait behind you when there is plenty of space to overtake, then pass you at the most dangerous point possible.  One driver actually stopped and asked me why I had shouted at him after he had done exactly that, and he genuinely wanted to know as he had no conception or understanding of what he'd just done.

We seem to have a significant number of people who really don't know what they are doing in a car and don't know the most basic facts about driving safely.  We need a much more rigorous judicial system which starts with a year's ban for driving which results in significant danger to another road user, with no exemptions for hardship.

You have to pity that small % of UK drivers who have voices in their heads bellowing "YOU MUST GET PAST!" over and over whilst they hang back behind another road user. Eventually the driver loses the will to still the voices, usually at the least appropriate moment on the road, and past they go, shaving the riders legs...

...I especially enjoy the ones who do it from 10mph in fifth gear.

brooksby wrote:

On the Tour of Pembrokeshire vs Tractor thing: curious to know on what grounds the charges were dismissed? 

He is a local and the cyclists were from outside the area, selfishly disrupting everyone's daily lives. Or some such bollocks.

Simon E wrote:

brooksby wrote:

On the Tour of Pembrokeshire vs Tractor thing: curious to know on what grounds the charges were dismissed? 

He is a local and the cyclists were from outside the area, selfishly disrupting everyone's daily lives. Or some such bollocks.

Scary thing is that you're probably right...