Couriers who deliver blood and pathology samples striking over stagnant wages and previous pay cuts

alansmurphy wrote:

Or squirrells...

Congratulations! You have qualified for today's prize...

hawkinspeter wrote:

alansmurphy wrote:

Or squirrells...

Congratulations! You have qualified for today's prize...

someone has been scouring reddit it for squirrel related media.

ktache wrote:

But then how would the actual work be done, the delivery of the vital medical goods in this case?

Robots obviously (from the Czech "robota" meaning "forced labour").

mattsccm wrote:

If you want the bosses pay do their job. 

More than happy to do that - where do I sign?

In reality, most bosses get to their position by being born into rich families and/or lying and cheating their way to the top. This is why CEOs tend to have a very high rating on psychopathy tests.

mattsccm wrote:

If you want the bosses pay do their job. 

Yes, that is what we should all do. We should all be bosses.

mattsccm wrote:

If you want the bosses pay do their job. 

No problem.

And if the managers think minimum wage is enough to buy/rent a home and raise your kids, and that zero-hours contracts or a 30% pay drop are fine, then they can roll up their sleeves and do the work themselves for the same rate.

I won't be holding my breath.

Simon E wrote:

mattsccm wrote:

If you want the bosses pay do their job. 

No problem.

And if the managers think minimum wage is enough to buy/rent a home and raise your kids, and that zero-hours contracts or a 30% pay drop are fine, then they can roll up their sleeves and do the work themselves for the same rate.

I won't be holding my breath.

Then don't do the job, you are only complicit in encouraging their mendacious ways.

Alternatively the people involved in this particular dispute have all the skills, equipment and track record to set up their own collectively owned business. I'm actually a big fan of workers owning a share of the businesses they work in as well as having a significant say in how those businesses are run.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Then don't do the job, you are only complicit in encouraging their mendacious ways.

And do what? Live in a cardboard box and set up my own business?

Don't make me fucking laugh out loud at how scornful that sounds and how unrealistic it is for so many people, especially those in low paid jobs.

Single 1979 choosing to strike (i.e. withdrawal of labour), has been made to look like a selfish act motivated by greed, regardless of the reasons. It makes it harder for groups or individuals to bargain with ruthless employers on anything remotely resembling an equal footing.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Alternatively the people involved in this particular dispute have all the skills, equipment and track record to set up their own collectively owned business. I'm actually a big fan of workers owning a share of the businesses they work in as well as having a significant say in how those businesses are run.

I agree. However, who gets to decide whether they are given the contract? The very people they are in dispute with. Hardly the basis for gentlemanly negotiations or a favourable outcome.

Or is there a magic wand you're not telling us about? If so, can I borrow it to make such things happen?

Mungecrundle wrote:

Over simplistic and I appreciate that an awful lot of people are effectively trapped for multitudinous reasons in undervalued jobs where they are made to feel like crap by senior management always looking to cut costs in every part of the business except management pay and bonuses.

But, there is the option to take your employment services elsewhere, or if your talents allow, to climb the rickety corporate ladder of responsibility get paid for a more senior position then use your influence to nudge corporate culture towards a more egalitarian, meritocratic system.

Sorry but I disagree strongly with this. As if climbing the corporate ladder (if that's your goal) or changing the culture of a company is so fucking simple!

"I did allright for myself so you're not trying" and "if you don't like it go elsewhere" is the kind of claptrap that Thatcher used and prompted Norman Tebbit's on-yer-bike comments. It is used by Alan Sugar and many other so-called 'successful' people to justify their wealth and exploiting other people and repeated by blinkered, ignorant people to justify the status quo.

The biggest problem is that so many people lack empathy, they can't put themselves in someone else's shoes. Try looking for work when you're unqualified and lack experience, been in prison, have a disability or have been brought up with no hope and feel trapped and unable to change your situation.

Many of us just don't have an entrepreneurial mindset. A couple of friends do and I admire them for it but I could not emulate either of them if I tried.

There are always lots of low paid jobs in care work. Staff turnover is high because the pay is shit, prospects are poor and the hours are long and unsociable. Many people are not cut out for it (and yes, you really have be to stick at it and do it well) or can't handle the abuse from patients/clients or relatives. My wife, a qualified nurse, has worked in nursing homes on and off since she was 16 and now works in mental health. She and her colleagues understand and handle the clients far, far better than I ever could. It is insulting that better-paid people look down at that kind of work when she knows that they wouldn't last 5 minutes doing a job like hers, dealing with dementia patients, incontinent old ladies in the middle of the night or violent pissheads in A&E. But of course those people will want the best treatment from these 'underlings' for themselves and their relatives when they need it.

Simon E wrote:

The biggest problem is that so many people lack empathy, they can't put themselves in someone else's shoes. Try looking for work when you're unqualified and lack experience, been in prison, have a disability or have been brought up with no hope and feel trapped and unable to change your situation.

Many of us just don't have an entrepreneurial mindset. A couple of friends do and I admire them for it but I could not emulate either of them if I tried.

There are always lots of low paid jobs in care work. Staff turnover is high because the pay is shit, prospects are poor and the hours are long and unsociable. Many people are not cut out for it (and yes, you really have be to stick at it and do it well) or can't handle the abuse from patients/clients or relatives. My wife, a qualified nurse, has worked in nursing homes on and off since she was 16 and now works in mental health. She and her colleagues understand and handle the clients far, far better than I ever could. It is insulting that better-paid people look down at that kind of work when she knows that they wouldn't last 5 minutes doing a job like hers, dealing with dementia patients, incontinent old ladies in the middle of the night or violent pissheads in A&E. But of course those people will want the best treatment from these 'underlings' for themselves and their relatives when they need it.

Some people get it, e.g. the ironically named Julian Richer, who just gave away a fortune to his staff and has given them control of the company https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/14/richer-sounds-staff-jul...

This is like the John Lewis shops, and should be a model for British firms, but for some people, the aim is to accumulate vast wealth, not to be a real human being.  I'm not christian, but as the bible says "love of money is the root of all evil"  but our society values wealth above all else while pretending to be christian.

burtthebike wrote:

Some people get it, e.g. the ironically named Julian Richer, who just gave away a fortune to his staff and has given them control of the company https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/14/richer-sounds-staff-jul...

This is like the John Lewis shops, and should be a model for British firms, but for some people, the aim is to accumulate vast wealth, not to be a real human being.  I'm not christian, but as the bible says "love of money is the root of all evil"  but our society values wealth above all else while pretending to be christian.

I don't know anything about Julian Richer but most people who become wealthy got there by being mean, not by being philanthropic. Nobody gets rich by being generous. Equally, those who inherit wealth don't give it away, they use tax havens and various means to hold onto as much of it as possible.

I was brought up in a deeply Christian household and have spent a great portion of my life mixing with church people, but for me it has always been deeper than following a religious code, it's about respect for my fellow human beings. There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who show very little evidence of following the teachings of Jesus, IME church congregations are awash with hypocrites. Also, virtually everyone who admires such ideals will inevitably fall short of acting on them in some way or other. Lots of kind, caring people will buy sweatshop clothing or don't think to choose fairtrade goods (I know it's not that simple, those are merely examples).

hawkinspeter wrote:

In reality, most bosses get to their position by being born into rich families and/or lying and cheating their way to the top. This is why CEOs tend to have a very high rating on psychopathy tests.

Agreed. Many people who are bosses would make really shit employees (and often make shit bosses. I'd be a useless boss, but for very different reasons).

I've also seen over and over again that people are often promoted, not based on competence but on other, less relevant grounds. Equally suitable or more skilled colleagues are ignored. It's why there is always suspicion about the motives of people in the Masons and those who socialise and 'recruit' in golf clubs.

Simon E wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

Some people get it, e.g. the ironically named Julian Richer, who just gave away a fortune to his staff and has given them control of the company https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/14/richer-sounds-staff-jul...

This is like the John Lewis shops, and should be a model for British firms, but for some people, the aim is to accumulate vast wealth, not to be a real human being.  I'm not christian, but as the bible says "love of money is the root of all evil"  but our society values wealth above all else while pretending to be christian.

I don't know anything about Julian Richer but most people who become wealthy got there by being mean, not by being philanthropic. Nobody gets rich by being generous. Equally, those who inherit wealth don't give it away, they use tax havens and various means to hold onto as much of it as possible.

I was brought up in a deeply Christian household and have spent a great portion of my life mixing with church people, but for me it has always been deeper than following a religious code, it's about respect for my fellow human beings. There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who show very little evidence of following the teachings of Jesus, IME church congregations are awash with hypocrites. Also, virtually everyone who admires such ideals will inevitably fall short of acting on them in some way or other. Lots of kind, caring people will buy sweatshop clothing or don't think to choose fairtrade goods (I know it's not that simple, those are merely examples).

hawkinspeter wrote:

In reality, most bosses get to their position by being born into rich families and/or lying and cheating their way to the top. This is why CEOs tend to have a very high rating on psychopathy tests.

Agreed. Many people who are bosses would make really shit employees (and often make shit bosses. I'd be a useless boss, but for very different reasons).

I've also seen over and over again that people are often promoted, not based on competence but on other, less relevant grounds. Equally suitable or more skilled colleagues are ignored. It's why there is always suspicion about the motives of people in the Masons and those who socialise and 'recruit' in golf clubs.

Speaking as a devout atheist, I've never quite understood how christianity and capitalism are compatible.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Over simplistic and I appreciate that an awful lot of people are effectively trapped for multitudinous reasons in undervalued jobs where they are made to feel like crap by senior management always looking to cut costs in every part of the business except management pay and bonuses.

But, there is the option to take your employment services elsewhere, or if your talents allow, to climb the rickety corporate ladder of responsibility get paid for a more senior position then use your influence to nudge corporate culture towards a more egalitarian, meritocratic system.

Your first paragraph is correct and effectively makes your second one false. A lot of people do not have a realistic choice to work elsewhere as those jobs have the exact same issues.

ex_terra wrote:

“The NHS is virtually privatised and making a lot of companies- people very wealthy. “

This is complete bobbins.

Private sector provision in the NHS in England is Less than 10% of spend and hasn’t changed significantly since Labour were last in office - so if the Tories are rapaciously privatising it they are doing a pretty poor job given they’ve had 9 years running it.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-election-question... (link is external)

It’s also worth noting that the NHS CEO chosen by the Tories is Simon Stevens - who was Tony Blair’s special adviser on Healthcare.

My own experience of the NHS in the last 2 years has been that of abysmal care even when I was very ill - there were lots of staff around but no-one gave a toss. I’ve also been waiting for more than 18 months for an operation that will avoid me getting seriously ill again - despite endless reminders to the GPs and the Consultant, several completely pointless appointments etc. they still haven’t even given me a date.

In most parts of Europe (where private provision is the norm) this would be an outage - but here because the NHS is “national treasure” it’s just seen as acceptable.

Tell me, if you kept having your pay cut while prices kept rising, but your boss's pay goes up exponentially, how would you feel?   If you had to take out a payday loan because your fridge broke while the boss buys his third Ferrari, how would you feel?  If the nurse looking after your sick kid has to go to food banks to feed her kids, how would you feel?

Go watch "I, Daniel Blake" and weep.

Xena wrote:

The profits are rarely seen by the people working on the front line . When a company that has share holders makes less profit than the year before they go on about it like it’s a disaster. But the shareholders are still getting rich just not quite as rich as expected and the fall out always hits the workers on the front line “we need to make cuts we need to make redundancies etc “ 

OTOH the primary purpose of any limited/incorporated company with shareholders is to make money for those shareholders.  If it makes any decision where the money paid out to shareholders decreases, then the directors are open to legal action for dereliction of duty...

brooksby wrote:

Xena wrote:

The profits are rarely seen by the people working on the front line . When a company that has share holders makes less profit than the year before they go on about it like it’s a disaster. But the shareholders are still getting rich just not quite as rich as expected and the fall out always hits the workers on the front line “we need to make cuts we need to make redundancies etc “ 

OTOH the primary purpose of any limited/incorporated company with shareholders is to make money for those shareholders.  If it makes any decision where the money paid out to shareholders decreases, then the directors are open to legal action for dereliction of duty...

Thats not correct. The obligation on directors is to act in the best interests of the company. Legaly:

"A director must act in a way he or she considers, in good faith, would be most likely to promote the success of the company for the benefit of its members /shareholders"

That is often taken to mean that they must consistently make choices that maximise the short term profit of the company, but this is an incorrect assumption. Success and benefit do not always have to be measured in pounds, shillings and pence. They can be measured in reaching the companies goals, increasing market share, meeting legal obligations or improving the reputation of the company. This is how directors justify large pay increases. 

Xena wrote:

The profits are rarely seen by the people working on the front line . When a company that has share holders makes less profit than the year before they go on about it like it’s a disaster. But the shareholders are still getting rich just not quite as rich as expected and the fall out always hits the workers on the front line “we need to make cuts we need to make redundancies etc “

This is how private companies work, especially PLCs. They are run for the benefit of shareholders.

Invariably the people who do the real work have the fewest rights and the lowest wages. Then when they kick up a fuss they are told they are demanding, ungrateful etc.

Compare their wages and any perks with the management. Many NHS trusts, including my own, have been very badly run - not by the cleaners, the porters, the nurses and couriers, but by the extremely well paid senior managers.

The culture of privatisation has infected the NHS and many other areas of British life. We have seen many public utilities and services sold off to private investors, nearly always at an unrealistically low rate. Bus and train services and rail infrastructure are a mess. Capita have a dreadful reputation for screwing up infrastructure projects. No-one likes overseas customer service call centres but companies do it because it's cheap yet people still think that privatisation of public services is the way to go because of misleading claims of "efficiency" and all the other bollocks we're told.

ex_terra wrote:

My own experience of the NHS in the last 2 years has been that of abysmal care even when I was very ill - there were lots of staff around but no-one gave a toss. I’ve also been waiting for more than 18 months for an operation that will avoid me getting seriously ill again - despite endless reminders to the GPs and the Consultant, several completely pointless appointments etc. they still haven’t even given me a date.

Waiting lists are long. It's not good to hear of your experience but I've never heard of anyone experiencing the same. In fact, most people - especially in-patients - get very good care though the staff are often very busy and under a great deal of stress. I know a significant number of people who work in the NHS, both locally and elsewhere, and they would be appalled at the idea of staff not giving a toss.

burtthebike wrote:

This might rather belong on a political website, but it does involve cyclists, so.......

This is what the tories and the Brexit party want to do with the NHS, sell it off so that the mega-rich can get even richer while the poor suffer, including cyclists.  Good old Nigel "milksop" Farage has stated that he wants to go to an American system of insurance, nothing to do with his mate Arron Banks being in the insurance business though.  Banks has paid milksop £450,000 over the past two years, I wonder why.

Yup and yup again

burtthebike wrote:

This might rather belong on a political website, but it does involve cyclists, so.......

This is what the tories and the Brexit party want to do with the NHS, sell it off so that the mega-rich can get even richer while the poor suffer, including cyclists.  Good old Nigel "milksop" Farage has stated that he wants to go to an American system of insurance, nothing to do with his mate Arron Banks being in the insurance business though.  Banks has paid milksop £450,000 over the past two years, I wonder why.

How dare you! St Nige is a man of the people! A proper working class, privately educated, ex banker, hero! Salt of the earth! Stands up for the common man. Obviously by common I mean white and English speaking and by man I mean, well, not women. I mean, he drinks pints and everything. Proves he’s not muslamic.

John Smith wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

This might rather belong on a political website, but it does involve cyclists, so.......

This is what the tories and the Brexit party want to do with the NHS, sell it off so that the mega-rich can get even richer while the poor suffer, including cyclists.  Good old Nigel "milksop" Farage has stated that he wants to go to an American system of insurance, nothing to do with his mate Arron Banks being in the insurance business though.  Banks has paid milksop £450,000 over the past two years, I wonder why.

 

How dare you! St Nige is a man of the people! A proper working class, privately educated, ex banker, hero! Salt of the earth! Stands up for the common man. Obviously by common I mean white and English speaking and by man I mean, well, not women. I mean, he drinks pints and everything. Proves he’s not muslamic.

And he's definitely not a Career Politician, cos they're Evil.  Yes, his main salaried job for over twenty years has been as a politician in an institution he despises, but that's different...