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news
Near Miss of the Day 714 (updated): Police stand by comments questioning cyclist's positioning despite Highway Code changes
Earlier this month, road.cc reader Andrew sent us this two-year-old clip, predicting it may well start quite a debate about positioning. At the time South Wales Police told him they weren't impressed with his middle of the lane position at the roundabout, and would not be taking action against the driver... and in their latest response to road.cc, the force said the response was "appropriate at that time."
> Near Miss of the Day 713: Driver asked not to close pass... then does it again
Below is the original response that Andrew got from South Wales Police, telling him they would not be taking action against the driver, and claiming he was at fault:
Thank you for the submission. We have concerns about your positioning whilst negotiating the roundabout.
It is clear that you have entered in a nearside position but then drifted across to the offside when you are manoeuvring around the roundabout resulting in you being drawn closer to the passing vehicle.
If you had taken the same line as the cyclist behind you, who remained in a nearside position, there would have been no issues. No further action being taken.
Andrew told us he was interested to hear others' thoughts about this, saying "I report many close passes and generally get a good response from operation SNAP in Wales.
"However, my last few have ended in comments criticising the way I ride and end up blaming me. I would be happy to amend my cycling to make it safer for myself but I struggle to see how moving to the 'nearside' position would have prevented this close pass or made it safer to negotiate the roundabout."
As you'll see below many of you did indeed comment, with a number of you suggesting that the police response was wrong because the driver overtook on a roundabout.
It seems that South Wales Police big to differ, however, as their statement to road.cc confirms they will not be commenting further, and that the response was appropriate based on the rules of the Highway Code at that time.
Here is their response to us in full:
This footage shows a time of May 1st 2020, almost two years ago. The response to the report was appropriate at that time.
The response to the complaint states that he cyclist to the rear clearly remained in a nearside position while the complainant drifted into the offside position while negotiating the roundabout.
The response was given according to the Highway Code as it stood then. It is inappropriate to comment upon an event from two years ago with regard to today’s Highway Code.
> Near Miss of the Day turns 100 - Why do we do the feature and what have we learnt from it?
Over the years road.cc has reported on literally hundreds of close passes and near misses involving badly driven vehicles from every corner of the country – so many, in fact, that we’ve decided to turn the phenomenon into a regular feature on the site. One day hopefully we will run out of close passes and near misses to report on, but until that happy day arrives, Near Miss of the Day will keep rolling on.
If you’ve caught on camera a close encounter of the uncomfortable kind with another road user that you’d like to share with the wider cycling community please send it to us at info [at] road.cc or send us a message via the road.cc Facebook page.
If the video is on YouTube, please send us a link, if not we can add any footage you supply to our YouTube channel as an unlisted video (so it won't show up on searches).
Please also let us know whether you contacted the police and if so what their reaction was, as well as the reaction of the vehicle operator if it was a bus, lorry or van with company markings etc.
> What to do if you capture a near miss or close pass (or worse) on camera while cycling
Dan is the road.cc news editor and joined in 2020 having previously written about nearly every other sport under the sun for the Express, and the weird and wonderful world of non-league football for The Non-League Paper. Dan has been at road.cc for four years and mainly writes news and tech articles as well as the occasional feature. He has hopefully kept you entertained on the live blog too.
Never fast enough to take things on the bike too seriously, when he's not working you'll find him exploring the south of England by two wheels at a leisurely weekend pace, or enjoying his favourite Scottish roads when visiting family. Sometimes he'll even load up the bags and ride up the whole way, he's a bit strange like that.
Latest Comments
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.....left the 17-year-old victim "for dead"...
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There's a big difference between 54/11 and 56/10. Just sayin'.
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I’ll be playing all year again if it’s on. Pleeease.
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When was the roundabout constructed? It looks modern to me, and if so, why didn't the risk assessment pick up the fact that it was stupidly...
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Well, if it's broken in a very specific and limited way, then they're probably fine with it.
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156 comments
That's a great HC quote re the advice for motorists encountering cyclists. Also, spot on re hatch markings.
Driver sees "bad positioning" (aka takes primary through out the junction), and so decides to overtake on said junction, and transgress the chevrons.
You blame cyclist for driver's error.
You are Garage,Boo, Socrappi (whatevs) and I claim my £5.
.
And I am Flintshire Boy, and I claim my £10 prize.
.
Do you think the earth is flat and believe in chemtrails? Jesus man, you're on here as a f***ing badger!
Wow, you really are a good new signing for team anti-cyclist troll here, aren't you? The driver held back? Overtaking "soon into the exit"? S/he's pressurising the cyclist before they even enter the roundabout, tailgates them all the way round, hooting at them for legally progressing round the roundabout and even when using the hatchings passes illegally close. There's nothing "questionable" about it, it's breaking at least three Highway Code rules (not staying behind cyclists on a roundabout, inappropriate use of horn, close passing cyclist).
.
'Hoot'.
.
Is that the same as where a driver politley warns a cylcist of their presence?
.
A triple jab on the horn when you're driving a metre off someone's arse and trying to pressure them (illegally as you should not be overtaking them on a roundabout) into yielding their legal right of way in order to make a pass that you could make safely and legally literally three seconds later is not the same as that, no.
Top marks for spelling there, are you pissed?
That's right. There's no little "clique" here. Just a predictable bunch of a*holes resorting to calling someone a troll. Try harder.
You really are most amusing, you've been on this site what, two days, you've posted 33 times, and every single post has been either to denigrate cyclists in general, support anti-cycling measures, or insult specific site members, and yet you claim you're not trolling. Try harder? You're not worth the effort sweetie.
And in two days I am honestly past caring what you and your ilk on here think. It's beyond pathetic. I get it if you're not adhering solidly to the "group think" you can't possibly be a cyclist blah blah blah. Troll troll troll.
So why are you here? There are myriad sites that suit your viewpoint rather better (may I suggest the Daily Mail, Petrolheads.com etc), why are you bothering coming on here to spaff your silly opinions about and be rude to people if you don't care? Textbook trolling.
I wouldn't wipe my arse on the daily mail, but thanks for the ad hom, makes a change from straw men.
Well that's not fair. Mostly it's been indiscriminately insulting the site membership in general.
Only true if the site is made up of just the half a dozen odd sanctimonious members that resort to straw men and troll accusations.
Hmmmm
Yeah - definitely no sweeping indiscriminate dismissals of the road.cc membership there. All clearly directed against specific people...
Hmm yeah, the reference to the clique as in the half dozen or so fans of straw men. I'm starting to see there are, as expected a good number of decent folk here though.
Don't be fooled.
I do find it interesting that anyone who disagrees with what you say is always a straw man. I thought forums were there for debate?
Your first point on this thread came at the point when the majority of comments were agreeing that the cyclists positioning was not great but the driver also had responsibility.... and you attempted to say that the driver read the situation "Initially the driver anticipated this and held back." when they clearly did not, they were themselves trying to straight line the roundabout.
Then you went on to offer a reason why the driver did what they did. "Questionable on the drivers part overtaking so soon into the exit, probably thought it was safe to do so due to the hatched markings giving extra room"
Your next comment was to criticise the cyclist for their lack of situational awareness..... without any hint of irony from the fact that your previous comment was pretty much giving reasons/excuses for the drivers lack of situational awareness.
Then "Also expecting impatient drivers to potentially do what this one did and be in the right hand lane going straight on to attempt a pass (wrongly, before I get jumped on)" .... reading your comments together its almost like you feel that cyclists should expect drivers to do things they are not supposed to do and just take it in their stride...... but drivers should not expect the same of cyclists.
No doubt you will say I have completely taken your comments out of context, or you never meant what you posted or that I am putting straw man arguments to you.
The cyclist didn't have any situational awareness. With two lanes there was a car in the right hand lane and they moved into their path, the fact the car straigtlined the roundabout is moot. If you are in the right hand lane going right, even if you are another cyclists you are not expecting someone in the left hand lane to drift into your path.
I really don't know how to respond to the below it is so exasperatingly stupid. This ultimately doesn't even come down to the vehicle if we are honest, I use a camera on my bike and have a dashcam in my car for the same reason. Other road users will do stupid things, what vehicle they happen to be in is incidental. What are you trying to do here, excuse the cyclists poor standards in this clip?
Where have I ever said the cyclist in the clip wasn't partly to blame for the incident? I accepted the fact that the cyclist had limited situational awareness... but you seem to lack the will to admit the driver showed an equal lack of situational awareness.
My objection is people who are intensely critical of the cyclists actions but do not apply the same criticism to the motorists actions, but insted offer excuses/reasons/platitudes as to why the motorist did what they did. You and Garage at large are the two most notable examples.
The two (edit for clarity - the motorist and cyclist being wrong) are not mutually exclusive. I have repeatedly said that BOTH motorist and cyclist should have been spoken to by the police about the manner of their road use.
You stated;
"...its almost like you feel that cyclists should expect drivers to do things they are not supposed to do and just take it in their stride...... but drivers should not expect the same of cyclists."
So now you are saying motorists SHOULD expect cyclists to do stupid things?
Going past that mess, the reality as I stated is the vehicle is moot, peole will do stupid things in whatever vehcile they happen to be in. I have had an insurance claim from someone driving into the side of my car when they didn't pay attention on a roundabout and on the flip side a few weeks back when out on my bike, was stopped grabbing food and heard a car horn and screech of tyres. A cyclist had barreled down a hill too fast, gone out of control, crossed a busy main road and crashed into the pavement opposite.
I have never said the motorist wasn't in the wrong. All I did was try and understand why they did what they did, and somehow that created a sh*t show of accustations that I must be a troll and now lumping me in with some fella called garage at large. That isn't being "intensely critical" of cyclists, however much you may want to spin it that way. You don't solve an issue without trying to understand what the problem is and why people (mototists in this case) beahave a certain way in a given situation.
I am trying to fathom why you want to "try and understand why they (the motorist) did what they did" but you don't want to extend the same courtesy to the cyclist.
And if you want to understand why they did what they did.... lets break it down how I saw the video play out
The cyclist made a singular mistake (or a bad choice) by drifting as they were going round the roundabout..... the motorist made a series of decisions and took a series of actions to get in front of the cyclist at the earliest opportunity. Here are the decisions the driver took
Perhaps you have noticed how the first series decisions made by the driver were not influenced at all by the cyclists mistake/choice. Perhaps those decisions might help you to understand why the driver did what they did, but perhaps you need it spelled out for you...
Must
Get
In
Front
As a driver on the approach to a roundabout I am always assessing what other road users will do, and on roundabouts like the one in the video if I am in the right lane turning right and there is a vehicle in the left lane..... I am expecting them to straight line it, position myself accordingly (in general let them pull away slightly ahead of me) and about 80% of the time the vehicle in the left lane will straight line it to some greater or lesser extent.
As a driver and a rider I, like most others will make an occasional mistake, but I also drive and ride on the assumption that someone else will make a mistake at some point and drive/ride accordingly which has seen me in good stead.
My main point can be summed up as the rider made a single mistake/decision.... the driver made multiple choices which limits the chances of it being an isolated mistake.
Nailed it.
After seeing a couple of comments about which lane should be used approaching roundabouts for going straight-ahead, I've been reminded about some terrible road design here in Bristol.
Map Link
I often ride over this roundabout (I live in St George) and there's two lanes on the approach, so I tend to go for the right-hand lane, but keep very close to the dividing line (i.e. not primary) for taking the second exit. Now, the problem is that the roundabout is marked with dotted lines for both lanes to be used for taking the first exit and the second straight-ahead exit (and 3rd). This means that I can expect vehicles in the left-most lane to be cutting across both lanes to go for the second exit, so I try to ensure that I start moving early and make my intention obvious to them. The other alternative would be to stay left and then aim to cut across two lanes of traffic.
I've had a few discussions with drivers about this.
I don't think you're right about that. The signage is lane 1 left and ahead, lane 2 ahead and right.
If I was going ahead onto the A420 there, I would be in primary in lane 1, but wary of drivers in lane 2 getting it wrong and wanting to turn left across me.
Road markings need repainting though!
Okay, the signage agrees with my interpretation that vehicles in the left lane approaching should only be taking the first exit, but it's the way the lanes are laid out on the road that give drivers the wrong impression.
The problem is that the centre of the two approaching lanes is continued with the dashed line then going to the centre of the two lanes heading for A420/A4.
It doesn't, it says the left lane can go for the 1st (A4320/M32) or the 2nd (A420) exit. The white dotted lines are in the right place, but the Audi in the second photo is in the wrong place!
All these direction signs are advisory only and on multi-lane roundabouts you've just got to expect anything, so it's all a bit arbitary anyway.
Okay, I must admit to rarely looking at the signs (usually checking behind me at that point) and I was misreading A420 as A4320. It appears that I'm guilty of doing a bit of lane drift (like the Audi) when I go through there. Maybe I should take primary position on the left approach lane instead, but as you say, that would leave me open to a fast overtake/hook from a vehicle in the right-hand approach lane heading towards the 1st exit.
To make matters even more confusing, I've had cars using the left approach lane and then end up heading for the 3rd exit.
With a very large gyratory like that, there's not really anything you can do to stop every misdemeanour.
If you find that cars taking the 1st exit from lane 2 is a regular problem, then I would say go ahead in lane 2, but stay in lane 2 all the way over and in primary in the lane. Motorists will not expect you to drift like the Audi, it is the wrong line to take and you will no doubt get aggro for doing so.
What's the underpass like? If it's not full of broken glass and undesirables then it might not take too much longer as you won't need to wait for the traffic lights.
The underpass isn't too bad (not actually filled with broken glass), though there are occasional tent dwellers living there though at least they must be vaccinated judging by the number of needles left lying around. My main issue with using the underpass is that there's a couple of 180° turns required, so it's quicker and more direct to use the big roundabout instead.
Despite my complaining about it, I've not had any major issues using the road and have not felt the need to submit any cam footage, so I think I'll continue using it, though I might try out some slightly different tactics on it.
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