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forum
Upgrade Advice
Hi All!
First here is the backgound info:
I am about to embark on an upgrade session on one of my bikes (Carrera TDF).
The changes I am making are:
Wheels (Stock wheels to Mavic Ksyrium Elite S 2013)
Tyres (Kenda Koncept 23c to Continental Grand Prix 4 Season 25c)
Groupset (Shimano Tourney/ Tektro/ Prowheel to Shimano 5800 105)
Bar Tape (Stock Cork bar tape to Fi'zi:k Performance Classic)
The reasoning behind the above upgrades is that I want to go on longer cycles with my other half and I believe the above upgrades will help keep her on that bike for longer.
I know I may be better off just buying a new bike but I can do the above upgrades and get a pretty decent bike at the end of it for around £730 (including the original cost of the bike). I am pretty sure I would not be able to get a similar spec bike for that much and I am going to have a LOT of fun doing the upgrades! The bike as it currently stands is a pretty perfect fit too and she loves the look of it (her cycling gear co-ordinates with it too).
So here are my questions:
How long approximately will it take me to strip the old groupset off the bike and intall the new one? I will be using the workshop at my LBS so will have access to all the tools, manuals and expertise I need but want to know how much time to set asside for this project.
Are there any upgrades I have missed that would make a massive difference (seat is already upgraded and perfect), or any I am planning that are completely pointless?
Thanks in advance for any and all help
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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49 comments
Been there, done this - I upgraded my old B'Twin Triban 3 to a 105/Ultegra Di2 11-speed. Was good fun doing it, took me about a day of which a good couple of hours was spent swearing at the old square taper BB. Recently stripped it down to part it out and that took all of 20 mins.
Its a great way to learn bike maintenance and relatively straightforward as long as you take your time - 5800 is easy to set up (certainly easier to set up than a SRAM front mech) and you'll have pro-quality tools available.
The reason I did this originally was that I was used to my Triban and found it more comfortable than a bunch of other bikes I'd tried - I didn't want to go and spend a grand on C2W only to find my "dream" frame wasn't comfy after 50+ miles.
The rules changed to introduce accessories only packages, and I know a guy who managed to get a set of vector 2 pedals on the scheme, but I doubt anyone is going to agree that a frame is an accessory.
But I'm not planning on getting a frame on the scheme
Sorry. Was that me muddying the waters? (Bet you could, though ;-))
You can't use cycle to work vouchers to buy components, only complete bikes, unless your bike shop is prepared to break the rules and give you one thing while writing down another.
You didn't used to be able to but you can now, the rules changed earlier this year I believe.
This is an extract from the Evans Cycle website (https://www.evanscycles.com/ride-to-work/faqs):
What cycling equipment can I get?
You can get any adult bike and a wide range of cycling equipment. You can select cycling equipment with a bike, or if you are already commuting by bike you can choose to get equipment only, with all the same tax savings.
What equipment can I include?
A wide range of cycling equipment can be included on Ride-to-Work and scheme guidelines (as set by HMRC) advise a ‘common sense approach’ should be taken when considering items to include.
As a guide any items which help make you safer, keep your bike safe, or help with your commute can be included, as follows:
Helmet
Lights
Locks
Bags and racks
Cycle clothing*
Any high-viz items
Cycle cameras
Shoes
Mudguards
Pedals
Saddles
Tyres
Stems, seat-posts
Replacement bike parts to keep your bike safe on the road, for example
Brakes
Chains
Cassettes
Derailleurs
Groupsets
Wheels
Tools and maintenance items (e.g. pumps, puncture repair kits, multi-tools but not workstands)
Child seats and car racks can be included for example, when your journey to work involves using either piece of equipment as part of the commute.
*Cycle clothing needs to contain some high viz or reflective detail.
Please note HMRC currently excludes the following items from the scheme:
Computers, including GPS units
Energy food and drink
OK after taking on board some comments, doing a little working out and googling for prices I have found that I could get a CAAD8 Claris on the Cycle to Work scheme for the same cost as upgrading the Carrera.
My thoughts on disadvantages of buying the CAAD8:
My thoughts on disadvantages of upgrading the Carrera:
Below is the spec table comparing the two bikes, should I just buy the CAAD?
CarreraVsCAAD8Claris.jpg
I am very much open to suggestions and am not adverse to buying a bike because it has a better/lighter frame. Earlier this year I changed my daughters B'Twin princess bike for an IslaBike Beinn 20s (I am currently planning on changing this to a trigger shift as she is having no luck with the grip shift).
Personally I ride a Pinnacle Arkose III which was the best value I could get for my Cycle to Work scheme voucher last year. This year I am going to be upgrading this by spending my Cycle to Work Voucher on Mavic Ksyrium Elite All-Road wheels and a new Ultegra cassette as I have worn through some of the teeth on my 105 cassette.
The planned upgrades to my Pinnacle leave me ~£400 that I could spend upgrading the TDF. I believe this will benefit me in at least 2 ways which are:
I believe that the knowledge that I will gain from this should be invaluable for future maintenance and for when I upgrade both bikes to custom Ti frames which I plan to do in the next year or two when I have more knowledge about what I need from the frame.
Go for it. Here's why:
Your ultimate goals are:
* to get a Ti framed bike with decent kit, but you don't currently have the cash
* to gain some experience by having a play stripping and upgrading your girlfriend's bike
So - unless your girlfriend kicks you in to touch - I think your original idea is a good one.
If you bought a B'twin (or CAAD8) you'd have two entry level bikes. You don't currently have the readies for both a 'best' bike and a 'winter' bike - or even just a best bike - for her. So, you and your girlfriend ride around for a year or two whilst you set aside the money for your cherished frame (and fork and bars/stem etc).
The worst that can happen during that time - apart from her dumping you - is that you or her might decide that you don't care for cycling any more and you're left with a half decent bike and a few spare parts.
On the other hand, if you save up (and maybe get another C2W deal whereby you can supplement the £1000 voucher with your own cash - is that allowed?) and buy the Ti frame and finishing kit your GF will have a shiny bike and a winter or pub bike when you swap back the original entry level kit on to the Halfords frame.
Go for it! (You're going to buy a CAAD8, aren't you?)
Oh, and don't forget to buy a new chain with that new Ultegra cassette if you haven't done so already.
I don't want to go for the CAAD8 as I believe that it's dead money as there is nothing on there that I would want to transfer to the Ti frame in the future and I'm not learning anything from it.
I don't think adding to the voucher is allowed but next year and the year after I plan to use the vouchers to buy forks, bars, etc for the Ti bike as I should know a bit more about what I need. I feel I have enough knowledge now to appreciate that the 105 groupset and Mavic Ksyrium wheels are going to be good for my goal bike which is why my plan is to get them. The other parts I will get in the future as my understanding grows enough to make the informed decisions.
However if people offer me compelling reasons to not do the upgrade and just buy a CAAD then I will listen and ultimately choose what I need over what I want.
I have already upgraded to the Ultegra chain when my FSA chainrings buckled and broke my chain a month or so ago (also took the oportunity to upgrade to the 105 chainrings and crankset
)
I have a tdf as my winter bike. The frame is ok for what it is. It's not great, of course, but it's comfy enough that I've ridden thousands of miles on it in all weathers, including an imperial century a few years back. I bought it second hand from my neighbour when he upgraded to something better and between us it's been comprehensively upgraded. Mine now has full tiagra 4600 (cast off from upgrading another bike to 5800) and handbuilt wheels, carbon fork... the only stock bits remaining are the frame, the seatpost, stem and bars. I even had it powder coated bright red last year at a cost of £130 or so which is definitely more than the frame itself is worth. Was it "worth it"? No, but it's now definitely my bike and I enjoyed doing it. I'll likely sell it next year to fund a croix de fer build and I will be sorry to see it go.
btw you asked what BSO means - it stands for "bike shaped object". It's a term of derision for crap bikes. The tdf is not actually all that crap, so it's a bit unfair.
By the way, the vast majority of the build doesn't need to be done at the LBS. Most the parts are simply screwed on using an allen key. Your bottom bracket will need to be faced using bike shop tools though.
I don't know what the carrera TDF frame is like - probably most other posters aren't that familar with it either.
6061-T6 is the same the world over, but the tube profiles and geometries of frames differ. On the other hand, most road bikes for sale have a limited range of angles (e.g. 73 degree seat and head tubes) and these can easily be googled. I don't see why the Btwin would necessarily be any better than other TIOG welded by a robot in China alloy frame. You can pick up alloy frames for buttons.
Building up a bike is very satisfying and good experience for mending your bike in future. Generally speaking buying a new bike is alwasy better value than building up one yourself. On the other hand, if you already have most of the bits and can get the rest cheaply then why not?
You'll still have all the bits, and the knowledge how to fit them, so you can always buy a better frame in future.
I think many negative comments on here are just because the bike you are left with will still have stickers all over it with Carrera written on it, and they assume that carrera = cheap rubbish.
When I was a kid I had a cheap hi tensile steel frame and saved for years to buy a 531c frame, built to order, to replace it. I never really liked the 531c frame though as it was a bit big for me and seemed quite flexible, so in that case the cheap frame had a nicer ride.
Frames like the CAAD are known as being best in class, as an example, which is why they're getting suggested. They're also cheap and easy to pick up on eBay. Most of us here have ridden BSO's like Carerra's and have moved on to other frames higher up, that's why you're getting recommended to move on. People are being polite about it - yet you throw the snob card at them openly. That's interesting.
Even lower end Bianchi's like the Nirone 7 aren't great, I would know, from experience.
People are not going to sit and break down a frame by geometry and construction for you - to even want that shows an ignorance of what makes a frame worth buying at this budget - ride quality, ie. a sum of parts mostly unknown to even experienced riders.
What you're asking for you can have it though - when you start buying 5 grand frames from Colnago, Sarto etc then guys will take you seriously and get into it. Guys buying something special, even if it's not best in class, they want to know that dedication to worksmanship in next to none. But you, you want people to spend their time researching a Halfords frame and comparing it to other higher end off the peg Cannondales etc? Bullet points and all, for you and your Carerra bike? You didn't do it for yourself, why would anyone do it for you.
People ride bikes - they've said en masse that BSO's ride like BSO's, and better bikes ride better. They feel better, nicer, comfier, more responsive, more enjoyable - that's the level of discourse you're at when you start poking around asking about a Halfords bike upgrade.
Your thank you isn't a thank you, but a 'screw you, you guys are snobs, and you don't know what you're talking about because you won't waste your time going into detail about a Halfords frame that I'm set on giving the other half'.
You think you're real, you're not - you're in denial. Go upgrade your bike, enjoy it, hope she enjoys it.
Or maybe I'll just tell you what you want to hear - all these bikes are the same, it's the finishing kit that makes the difference. Could stick a Pinarello logo on a Carerra and no-one would know the difference. Fools and their money are soon parted, eh.
I don't need people to be polite, just factual. If the Carrera frame is a steaming pile then so be it. However unless people tell me why it is so then I cannot avoid making a similar mistake in the future. As I am planning on moving to a custom Ti frame in the next year or two so desperately need this information to avoid dire consequences.
This is exactly the sort of information I needed to hear (about what frames are not great from experience). I know I am inexperience, ignorant and niaive and that is why I am here asking the questions so that I can understand and try to educate and enlighten myself.
Not at all, as I have said that I intend to upgrade the frame later to a custom titanium frame but that is a year or two down the line. This is why I have wanted to know why people keep telling me to upgrade the frame as I need to know what good upgrading to a frame that will only be used for a year or two will achieve.
I have not done any of this working out regarding frames that you speak of because I do not have the knowledge to do so, that is why I am here. I also never mentioned upgrading the frame in the original post, it is all from the other posters that this arose so I am only asking for clarity. I have also tried to show my thinking and workings out in all my assumptions via the tables attached to my posts so I am not sure why you are acusing my of not doing comparisons.
Sorry to sound like a complete idiot but what is a BSO?
It was actually a genuine thank you, I welcome any and all constructive advice and have gained a fair amount of knowledge from the responses. I have learnt many things including how long I can expect the upgrade to take, which bits I could do at home, which bits to start with and other useful tips and tricks. It really has been invaluable and I an incredibly grateful!
I would also like to thank you for taking the time to write this response, it is exactly what I needed to open up the debate fully so that I can see where I am going wrong and investigate further.
I don't understand this?
I understand that different frame materials make different bikes and that the higher end are likely to be vastly superior. The question I had was is there really much of a difference at the lower end which is where everyone was pointing in their suggestions. The talk was of B'Twin vs Carrera not Pinarello vs Carerra.
I am not here to have my thoughts parroted back to me, I am here with an open mind to learn. Equally I am not just going to accept what someone says just because they say so. I have worked in process improvement far too long to accept lines like "Just because" and "That's the way we have always done it" as acceptable reasons.
I have to say I am rather disappointed that no-one has yet come back with a reason when challenged as to why the frame I am planning to upgrade is inferior to other 6061 frames.
I was expecting reasons like the following to come forth (obviously the following are made up by me):
Unfortunately nothing like the above has been posted so I am going to assume that it is purely brand snobbery and carry on as planned until I have seen some actual reasons not to (I am always very eager and willing to learn so any education is most welcome).
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to reply to the topic with words of encouragement, advice on tools, timeframe estimates, suggestions on upgrade variances and words of warning.
The bike as it currently stands is a pretty perfect fit too and she loves the look of it (her cycling gear co-ordinates with it too).
Well that's the Carrera's USP right there!!!
You would have to factor in a paint job on the other frames people are suggesting.
That's very true. I would have to work out which is more cost effective, a respray or buying her all new kit
ClubSmed, I hate to assume what others may think, but it might be a small amount of prejudice against it being a/an Halfords brand.
Seems a shame to put such a nice groupset and bits on such a poor frame. Better off selling it and buy a Caad 8, Synapse, or Giant Defy Frame off eBay. They are well worth of upgrading and will make a great build
OK so you have told me that the Carrara frame is poor and suggested alternatives. I assume that the alternatives you suggested are the 6061 versions rather than the carbon? So please tell me why these frames are better?
Everyone seems to just say that the Carrara frame is poor but no-one has offered a reason as to why yet.
Club, you seem determined to improve the carrera. I fully agree, it very satisfying doing the upgrade yourself. I would make sure that the groupset you're going to use is transferable to the titanium frame. Most Shimano /sram setups will happily move from bike to bike. Go for it, the sense of achievement and knowledge gained will be invaluable
I built this from a frame up, it's the business and I love it. Saved a mint building it myself
20160511_131240.jpg
I'm not beyond being convinced otherwise but until someone gives me factual reasons not to do it I'll go ahead. I have worked in process improvement for far too long to just take things at face value.
I have to say that the fun and experience I'm going to get from doing it is a large part of my rational
That bike looks amazing, great job!
Having done a bit of research on the tinterweb:
The triban 540 weighs 9.5kg and the wheelset and tyres account for 2.48kg of this
The Carrera TDF weighs 11.36kg and the wheelset and tyres according to a few reviews account for 3.81kg and the pedals 0.418kg
This means that if you strip off the wheels and pedals (the triban is weighed without but the carrera isn't) the weights are 7.02 vs 7.13 could the remaining 110g just be down to differences in kit or is there evidence that it is a heavier frame?
Just echoing the comments that the carrera isnt worth upgrading.
A new bike will be cheaper and easier. Not everything will fit - theres always something.
THe carrera is a cheap and heavy frame. The story of all sub 1000 bikes having the same quality of frame is way out. THe TdF is not a good frame and thats going to take its toll.
Check out the Btwin reviews.
Why is the carrera frame heavier and lesser quality than the btwin bikes which have a frame made of the same materials? Everyone is saying the same so I am sure there is a reason but I do not know it and wish to be educated in the matter. I've tried doing an internet search to find the answer but have come up short.
ClubSmed, do what the hell you want, upgrading is fun, and adds to mechanical experience.
Myself, I wouldn't do everything at the bikeshop, some things yes, headset, pressfit BB. If you are looking at it long term, and it would seem that you are, invest in some good quality tools and do things slowly and with care in front of the telly. LBS knowledge is great, but with internet, and not being rushed, it could be a more satisfying experience. I'm never going to fit my own headset again, did it fine, but scary, and after turning a round wheel into an egg, I shall always get them to true and build my wheels.
Nah, I'd get a decent sale bike on Cycle to Work. Lot of hassle for nothing. I've done the whole upgrade the pants bike for the missus thing. Ended up doing everything I could. Ended up selling it 4 months later. Waste of time. Got her a properly lush bike and now she loves cycling. Last weekend she was actually excited on Friday night about getting up early to go ride the next morning. First time. Not all about the bike, but quite a bit about the bike.
She does already like cycling, she has a vintage triumph that she does sub 20 miles cycles on but it isn't comfortable enough for her to go further. She is also not adverse to longer rides in theory as she did a 50 mile cycle with her friend but they swapped bikes halfway through so they could both make it.
I do take your point though but if this does turn out to be a failure I will have had fun upgrading and learning about bike maintenance as well as having a 2nd bike with better components for only ~£240 outlay
You have clearly made your mind up anyway although the general consensus seems to be that there is little point in putting lipstick on a pig. I would urge you to reconsider and start with a decent frame, that is more likely to get her out on the bike.
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