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41 comments
There’s a difference between punishment, rehabilitation, protection for society and vengeance. Measures should be rehabilitated, and in the event that she can’t be, society should be protected from her at best negligent driving. It’s a failure of justice that she isn’t rehabilitated and society isn’t protected from her.
Trashing her google results doesn’t rehabilitate her and doesn’t protect society from her poor driving. It’s vengeance. It’s predicated on the idea that if we feel we can get one over on her then things will be better, but they won’t be. No one will be any safer, and it won’t make her driving any better.
How many people who think they’re oh so clever for posting allusions to her being a murderer have, say, written to anyone who had a hand in her getting off? The CPS? The judge? Their MP? Thought not.
You can't 'rehabilitate' if you just let people off entirely.
You are correct that it's a failure of justice - that's the point, surely? The justice system didn't deliver justice, and it's an ongoing problem. I don't see why you want to sweep that under the carpet and have specific instances of that repeated failure forgotten.
As far as 'rehabilitation' vs imprisonment, I don't have a strong opinion about it either way. The big problem is that we don't really know how to rehabilitate people. Imprisonment does at least have the benefit of incapacitation, of keeping the dangerous away from the vulnerable for a time.
And the real issue is that we are much more prone to use imprisonment for some kinds of offender over others. Killer drivers are treated particularly leniently compared to other criminals, and that sends a message. If you want less punishment generally, killer drivers are not the place to start, they are already greatly favoured by the system. Put your reform efforts to use for those more deserving - there are plenty of them.
(Still annoyed that that prison reform trust lot complained about driving bans being imposed after release from prison - they called that 'double punishment' ... they really do seem to go out of their way to alienate people).
It’s not constructive. It’s vengeance. Nothing will be better for it. Her life being worse doesn’t mean anyone else’s is better,
So what’s the point?
I can't understand your position at all. Are you saying you are against anyone ever being punished for anything, then? No courts, no prisons, not even community service?
Besides I don't think it's as calculating as you make out. People have emotions, they have reactions due to being human. If one followed your logic nobody would ever participate in any protest about anything, ever express an opinion on anything, and, certainly, nobody would ever vote (voting is not really rational for the individual, it's a ritualistic act that is irrational for any given person - at least if they don't live in a marginal constituency, and probably even then - but which, collectively, has society-wide benefits, it's an interesting paradox in fact).
What's the point of your comments on this thread?
Do you have some particular sympathy for Measures, or have you just got into a position of arguing for the sake of it?
The letter in the Henley Standard from the parents of the victim killed by Helen Measures :
http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/emergency-services/86576/heartfelt-...
It's not a bad thing to remember the tradgey of this case, or indeed other morally degenerate cases of so called justice.
You’re out for cheap vengeance. You’re not going to bring anyone back, you’re not going to influence future judgements, you’re not going to get the law changed. You’re out to make yourself feel better st someone else’s expense. So, um, well done? You’ve achieved a lot, right?
It isn't vengeance. It's just pissing against the wind of people doing shit things and having them expunged from t'internet. Big difference.
Granted, not doing much in the grand scheme of things, but then: why do anything, eh?
Whereas that nigh unparsable sentence is anything but eloquent.
Anyway. News stories about her killing a cyclist come up high in Google’s results, so well done everybody. I’m sure you feel you’ve achieved a lot.
Well, y’know, every little helps...![3](https://cdn.road.cc/sites/all/modules/contrib/smiley/packs/smilies/3.gif)
(why: did you think that driving like that, and a response like that, and a court judgement like that, all deserve to disappear?)
I don’t think think they should disappear, but I don’t think it’s worth dredging them up to no constructive end. None of us will be safer on the roads if we succeed in tarnishing her google results.
So the explanations you've had so far don't meet your definition of 'constructive end'.
It should be pretty clear by now that they do by certain people.
How the fuck are they not going to disappear, in the face of her 'disappearing' them?
To flip your bizarre proposition: are any of us more at risk now that some Web pages remember Helen Measures more than she'd like?
And if you're having trouble parsing that: do one to a thread where you're actually adding something.
We've put a tiny amount of effort into making it less likely that an obnoxious piece of shit, who killed a cyclist via a dodgy manoeuvre and was then quoted expressing very little remorse, who employed an equally obnoxious lawyer, and then made attempts to have pages referring to the incident 'disappear', is forgotten a bit less than she'd like to be.
The effort made is about as much effort as you have put into denigrating our efforts, sarcastically. So well done you.
No, silly me, not well done.
Fuck off. That's the one.
The parsing, then known as "clause analysis", that I learned at primary school has served me well. The meaning is perfectly clear, although I would have added a couple of commas, if had I written it.
I will reserve my repugnance for Helen Measures.
Now look, we’re just going around in a cycle of agreement here that measures need to be in place to prevent murder. I’m sure there will be a steering group that’s driving this case right through to the death.
Just read this. Sad.
http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/emergency-services/86576/heartfelt-...
Very sad indeed, and eloquently put. The fact that the verdict that Helen Measures who killed a cyclist whilst she (Measures) was performing an overtaking manoeuvre was not guilty of careless driving was given on the birthday of the victim seems particularly cruel.
Some forms of selfish recklessness, while in a technical legal sense not the same as killing with intent (murder), are pretty much on-a-par with it, morally.
It would serve the interests of justice if measures were in place to address that. And once in place, measures should stay in that place for a very long time.
Just so I've got this right, we're talking about Helen Measures, who is the same person that we're not calling a murderer (in text, on the internet etc etc), because none of us would be so foolish as to go that far. That Helen Measures?
I feel for jurors in these cases, as they have no solid framework to base their judgements on.
For instance. I propose that anyone involved in a collision whilst driving on the wrong side of the road should start from a position of guilty, not the current position of innocent until proven guilty.
Why are there questions around this? You drive on the left of the road. There are generally white lines down suitably wide enough roads to dictate which side is which. Its not rocket science.
I appreciate that there are perfectly valid reasons to move into the oncoming lane, however when doing so, there should always, and I mean always, be a responsbility borne by the person doing so, to do so in a safe manner.
Oncoming traffic having to stop, having to manouvere out of the way, should be seen as an automatic fail in that responsibility.
If jurors delierated this case, with the above guideline in place, how could they fail to convict? Its all well and good saying the cyclist didn't have the skill to avoid the collision and is therefore culpable, however that becomes a moot point, when that cyclists need to have that skill is in itself an admission of guilt for the driver.
Basically I'm saying that many of the current issues we experience is around juror decisions, and if we could sort this out, a lot of the other issues would go away... maybe.
It just seems to me that the Gov are concentrating on "dangerous bl00dy cyclists" (Alliston case, basically), whereas there are so many more cases where justice doesn't seem to have been done where the tyre was on the other wheel, so to speak.
We have Helen Measures killing Denisa Perinova, Gail Purcell killing Michael Mason, and other cases that google can find for you (those are the two that came straight to mind).
The figures on KSI by motorists are awful, whether a pedestrian is crossing the road or just going about their business on a footpath they are still massively more likely to be KSI by a motorist than by a cyclist.
BTBS found the figures for KSI by a cyclist vs KSI by a motorist, and the one is thousands of times greater than the other. And I don't think that a cyclist has ever killed a motorist on the roads...![](/sites/all/themes/rcc/images/smilies/3.gif)
But, yeah, lets concentrate on dangerous cyclists, eh...?![](/sites/all/themes/rcc/images/smilies/39.gif)
It'd be justice if every juror member had a close friend or family member killed in a similar manner and had to stand by whilst their killers got completely let off.
She’s obviously not a murderer, given she didn’t intend to kill anyone. Anyone calling her a murderer would be a fool. Fortunately, you wouldn’t go that far.
Dr Helen Measures, a murderer? No, I wouldn't say that, but I can see why some might. In text. On the Internet.
Reports say it was the A415 (which I don't think exists in Henley) but I'm sure it was the B480 Stonor valley road.
I ride up there regularly, a beautiful peaceful road, twisty and very poorly sighted and there are very few places to safely do 50mph.
Reading the reports at the time I simply can't believe she got away with it.
We've all been those cyclists haven't we - car overtakes bikes on their side and comes head on to us.
Whether it's poor sight or poor driving I don't know - but its there for the grace of god goes us. Poor Denisa. No fault of her own. Tragic.
My view is that overtaking when you cannot see that it is safe to do so is definitely poor and inconsiderate driving.
Surely by definition it's dangerous given the known outcomes and indeed was the root cause of why someone died. Should have been maslaughter.
One can but hope guilt haunts her every day but I doubt it, she clearly can only see her involvement in the death of a human being as trivial at most. I can only wish horrible bad luck for her and her brief, that the judge did not intervene when he said what he did is an utter disgrace in itself. Jurists, well, how typical that these people are so often the problem and that they based on their low standards are allowed to sit in judgement of someone of the same level so cannot have an objective view by definition. That general public have an anti cycling viewpoint in itself means trials such as these cannot ever be fair or just.
The gov and CPS are weak as fuck and we are in a more dangerous society and more deaths and injuries occur because of their inaction/failures to address the issues at all levels.
Defence lawyer scum.
"Summing up, Mr Fielding (defence laywer) said: “Ben Pontin said it was a stupid decision to overtake. It was nowhere near as stupid as Mr Pontin’s decision to put Denisa Perinova on that bike in the first place.
“He ought not to have been so reckless with the life of his young girlfriend and he failed with terrible consequences.”
That statement got torn apart after the trial. The defence had made out it was practically her first time on a bike, whereas her family - after the close of the trial - claimed that she was an experienced and regular cyclist (a fact which wasn't used in court).
I think ktache here on road.cc is pretty knowledgeable on this particular case, too, and might be able to expand on that.
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