Guardian spread on electric cars (5 October)

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I had no idea we had such things as 'school buses' in this country, I thought they were purely an American thing.  Clearly I live in an urban bubble.  Odd, though that popular culture has long featured the US version, but I've never encountered reference to the UK version.

Not a specific design of vehicle like they have other there, but buses/coaches on specifically school runs. Usually run by smaller private operators from what I see. That's in addition to minibuses owned and run by schools themselves, for driving sports teams to matches, geography field trips, etc.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

I had no idea we had such things as 'school buses' in this country, I thought they were purely an American thing.  Clearly I live in an urban bubble.  Odd, though that popular culture has long featured the US version, but I've never encountered reference to the UK version.

The cost of school transport is a significant issue in rural counties. In Shropshire buses, provided by local companies contracted by the council, run on specific routes and pick up children within the school's catchment (this may be up to 10 or more miles from a secondary school, usually less for primaries). Some routes are along narrow country lanes.

In neighbouring Powys the situation is worse as the population density is lower so an even greater proportion of school pupils travel by bus from outlying areas. This is a significant issue for the council in an area where wages are particularly low.

Most post-16 colleges also have transport provided. Many of them charge for transport where it is provided. However, Reaseheath college in Nantwich has free transport from all points of the compass 5 days a week during term time, some buses collect from up to 50 miles away. I have no idea how it is funded.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

Trouble is it's surely clear that if there's a choice between properly solving a problem and trying a workaround 'fix' with lots of unexamined hidden costs (mostly for people other than those who cause the problem), we all know which one our society, public and government will pick.

I'd describe it not as a workaround but more of a refusal to acknowledge the harm done by cars, both socially and environmentally. I suspect the status quo is maintained due to a combination of the fear of voter rebellion and the unrelenting industry lobbying.

The vast majority of people in this country would rather lose a limb than reduce their car use for the sake of other people's health (or even their own) or something as nebulous and distant as the threat posed by climate change to the future of humanity: "Yeah, of course I want to save the planet but not right now, I have booked a foreign holiday for the family, a group of us are off to Mallorca for a week in March then going on a cycling trip to the Alps in July, and how am I supposed to do my work every day when I live 40 miles from the office? And none of the events I like to do are local so I drive half way across the country to do a bike ride".

Even if none of the new cars are manufactured in the UK there is a huge amount of money invested and people employed in vehicle dealerships, component suppliers and dealers, repairs and maintenance, even things like tyre depots and the secondhand market. And that's before we consider the roadbuilding sector. That's a lot of voters to upset as well as a lot of spending power (and therefore taxation) to lose.

Rick_Rude wrote:

Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.

They are not, and they don't address many of the problems of car use - congestion and parking, danger to vulnerable road users, while tailpipe emissions are only part of the transport pollution problem. For example:

https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/more-electric-cars

https://leftfootforward.org/2019/10/driven-to-disaster-the-major-flaw-in...

https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1137985246845120512 and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69180-001

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-10-02/california-micropla...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-dr...

And that's before we get onto the obesity crisis in this country while a huge proportion of car journeys are under 3 miles.

None of these publications promote e-bikes or electric mopeds, both of which are far smaller and cheaper than an e-SUV and would be a brilliant option for many households instead of a second car.

Yes I'd like to have an electric car instead of my dirty petrol one but I've never paid more than £2k for a car; with my modest salary, a mortgage and a family to support that's unlikely to change. I would also like to have solar panels on the roof of my house so I could charge my car etc with sunlight but no-one's giving those away cheaply either.

Perhaps the article is advertorial.

Simon E wrote:

Rick_Rude wrote:

Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.

They are not, and they don't address many of the problems of car use - congestion and parking, danger to vulnerable road users, while tailpipe emissions are only part of the transport pollution problem. For example:

https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/more-electric-cars

https://leftfootforward.org/2019/10/driven-to-disaster-the-major-flaw-in...

https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1137985246845120512 and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69180-001

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-10-02/california-micropla...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-dr...

And that's before we get onto the obesity crisis in this country while a huge proportion of car journeys are under 3 miles.

None of these publications promote e-bikes or electric mopeds, both of which are far smaller and cheaper than an e-SUV and would be a brilliant option for many households instead of a second car.

Yes I'd like to have an electric car instead of my dirty petrol one but I've never paid more than £2k for a car; with my modest salary, a mortgage and a family to support that's unlikely to change. I would also like to have solar panels on the roof of my house so I could charge my car etc with sunlight but no-one's giving those away cheaply either.

Perhaps the article is advertorial.

From the Friend of the Earth link. 

"Cancel all new road schemes and use the funding for public transport, walking and cycling."

This!

iandusud wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Rick_Rude wrote:

Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture.

They are not, and they don't address many of the problems of car use - congestion and parking, danger to vulnerable road users, while tailpipe emissions are only part of the transport pollution problem. For example:

https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/more-electric-cars

https://leftfootforward.org/2019/10/driven-to-disaster-the-major-flaw-in...

https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1137985246845120512 and https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69180-001

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-10-02/california-micropla...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-dr...

And that's before we get onto the obesity crisis in this country while a huge proportion of car journeys are under 3 miles.

None of these publications promote e-bikes or electric mopeds, both of which are far smaller and cheaper than an e-SUV and would be a brilliant option for many households instead of a second car.

Yes I'd like to have an electric car instead of my dirty petrol one but I've never paid more than £2k for a car; with my modest salary, a mortgage and a family to support that's unlikely to change. I would also like to have solar panels on the roof of my house so I could charge my car etc with sunlight but no-one's giving those away cheaply either.

Perhaps the article is advertorial.

From the Friend of the Earth link. 

"Cancel all new road schemes and use the funding for public transport, walking and cycling."

This!

Nice 1.

When I was studying bachelor of Engineering Electrical and Electronic , electric cars were not fashionable. Yet our head professors father in-law made his own using a small 4 cylinder car. Basically the engine was replaced with a machine, the gearbox was locked into 3rd forward ratio and 5 car batteries were placed in the boot. Range about 80km. Recyclable.
Obesity crisis.. Definitely. My friends wonder why I walk in the rain between our houses yet the distances are less than 1 km.
Never winning an argument with an idiot. Obesity is sometimes body. Lots of unneeded home medicines exist nowadays too. Fit able body people that don't understand they are trending towards obesity of the head.
I might ride that distance if dry but even if hammering down, wearing clothes that come off before or after walking in the door isn't difficult.

Seems like people want to win without the enjoyment of needed effort.

7 years of battery is where I think. Can they be recycled now?
Lead acid, AGMs seem nice but they don't like high current and prefer a longer life by being kept charged. Lithium is far superior regarding memory, high current applications such as larger horsepower machines, the older lithium ions had a preference of 4 ℃at 40% charge which is why I rotate my head light batteries at start of dimming and keep all (charged and low energy batteries) in my fridge door.

Too bro. A cheap vehicle. Uses 5litres /100km yet has a wide body

Rick_Rude wrote:

Yep, electric cars are not that green at all when you look at the overall picture. 

In my opinion the worst polluters on the roads in the UK are school buses. How those pieces of black smoke belching pieces of crap get through MOTs is beyond me. 

The black smoke ain't that bad.. It's diesel and a lot less harmful than petrol, just looks thick initially.

Lithium ion battery discarding down here has been done disgustingly. I'm pretty sure I read that the government managed to foolishly pay a less monetary customed country into accepting our toxic waste and hence dump it as landfill. By now it would have leached into the mighty Pacific ocean. Pacific =peaceful. Not sure how much peace fullness is with Pacific nowadays, tonnes upon tonnes of 'green' toxic landfills leaching into a system that contains an island the size of France made of fantastic plastic.

Our children have a debt that is nowhere near the size of their future grandchildrens debt if consumption to meet demands of wants continues to strengthen as it appears to be such.
The carbon projectile was gifted a heave on many years before our man recognized the ease to use tools yet if we lose that we are all dead. It's that simple.
Glad to ride bikes.

Griff500 wrote:

Anyone who thinks they can drive an electric car with a clear conscience needs to read up on the environmental damage being done in Tibet and Chile by lithium mines, and in central Africa through cobalt mines.

Have you got a link to that as I understood that modern Lithium was extracted from sea water with an increasing amount of energy provided by solar.

With regards child labour etc with regards Cobalt / Chromium etc some manufacturers such as Tesla have signed up to standards etc for responsible sourcing.

Also a bit of a strawman argument given the damage caused by extracting petroleum and the continuing damage caused by relying on it as a fuel.

pastyfacepaddy wrote:

Griff500 wrote:

Anyone who thinks they can drive an electric car with a clear conscience needs to read up on the environmental damage being done in Tibet and Chile by lithium mines, and in central Africa through cobalt mines.

Have you got a link to that as I understood that modern Lithium was extracted from sea water with an increasing amount of energy provided by solar.

 

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Just Google lithium production ffs! There is minimal commercial production from seawater. Most comes from onland salt deposits, using huge amounts of water to extract, which in Chile is stealing water from agriculture. Tibet has large scale pollution from chinese effluent.