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What does it take to get people to leave their car at home?

I'm back in the office; hybrid working (60:40 home/office).  I usually cycle (17 miles each way) or do a drive/cycle combo (close enough to the office to avoid the traffic and cycle in normal clothes without getting sweaty) if the weather is a bit inclement (or winter).  Bike park at work (many 1000s work at my site) is pretty empty (OK, people are working flexibly) but the traffic queues are almost back to pre-pandemic levels in places.  Junior staff in the office, on the lower salaries, wailing about the petrol price increases, which must be around 20%, yet they keep on paying.  Some people haven't got a choice, granted, but running the sums, cost of driving must be comparable to the bus or train; or dig a bike out and it cost sweet FA!

I wish Chris Boardman the best luck in the world, but when people are doggedly happy to empty their bank accounts to keep driving you have to wonder.

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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76 comments

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hawkinspeter replied to mdavidford | 2 years ago
8 likes

mdavidford wrote:

I don't want to be 'penalised' with taxes generally, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be.

Taxes are how we purchase civilisation

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zeeridesbikes replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
3 likes

If I thought the government would use more tax to build better infra for cycling, better hospitals or just generally improve people lives I'd be happy to pay more tax, but it's hard to stomach when you know it'll just be wasted. 

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hawkinspeter replied to zeeridesbikes | 2 years ago
5 likes

zeeridesbikes wrote:

If I thought the government would use more tax to build better infra for cycling, better hospitals or just generally improve people lives I'd be happy to pay more tax, but it's hard to stomach when you know it'll just be wasted. 

The problem isn't the tax paying - it's the electing of self-serving sociopaths.

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zeeridesbikes replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
2 likes

Can't disagree with that. 

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chrisonabike replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
3 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

mdavidford wrote:

I don't want to be 'penalised' with taxes generally, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be.

Taxes are how we purchase civilisation

Taxes are part of how we bond everyone into a state (humans are inherent cooperators).  Or if you don't subscribe to that how we make it worth everyone's while / bribe them into complicity with a state (saves having to beat them to do so).  Or if you're really "red in tooth and claw" how we rob them to fund the repressive apparatus.

Least worst system etc.  Anarchism is attractive - why not simply opt out of the taxes that don't suit us?  Or become entirely self-reliant?  However such systems have tended not to be as stable.  If only because all the other ogliarchies, dictatorships, kleptocratic democracies or global corporations may decide to oppose or fight us.

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hawkinspeter replied to chrisonabike | 2 years ago
1 like

chrisonatrike wrote:

Taxes are part of how we bond everyone into a state (humans are inherent cooperators).  Or if you don't subscribe to that how we make it worth everyone's while / bribe them into complicity with a state (saves having to beat them to do so).  Or if you're really "red in tooth and claw" how we rob them to fund the repressive apparatus.

Least worst system etc.  Anarchism is attractive - why not simply opt out of the taxes that don't suit us?  Or become entirely self-reliant?  However such systems have tended not to be as stable.  If only because all the other ogliarchies, dictatorships, kleptocratic democracies or global corporations may decide to oppose or fight us.

I'd love a bit of techno-anarchism - like a free-market of societal systems. Open source government if you will.

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mdavidford replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
5 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

I'd love a bit of techno-anarchism - like a free-market of societal systems. Open source government if you will.

Whereas what we've got is an open sauce government.

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hawkinspeter replied to mdavidford | 2 years ago
1 like

mdavidford wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

I'd love a bit of techno-anarchism - like a free-market of societal systems. Open source government if you will.

Whereas what we've got is an open sauce government.

Mmmmm! Jellied Eels!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/18/jellied-eel-canapes-and-venison-no-10-hosts-biggest-names-in-business-boris-johnson-bill-gates

 

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brooksby replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
0 likes

hawkinspeter wrote:

mdavidford wrote:

I don't want to be 'penalised' with taxes generally, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be.

Taxes are how we purchase civilisation

That needs to go on a poster or a banner  1

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hawkinspeter replied to brooksby | 2 years ago
3 likes

brooksby wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Taxes are how we purchase civilisation

That needs to go on a poster or a banner  1

It's an old saying that is often attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/13/taxes-civilize/

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brooksby replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
0 likes

Ha! You learn something new every day.

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David9694 | 2 years ago
2 likes

Reliable, cheap and frequent (I.e. planned) public transport and infra;  consistently safe cycle infra.  Attitudes to unecessary car use changing. Rolling back 50-60 years of hopeless car facilitation and prioritisation in favour of public transportansport and cycling. Road pricing or similar to really bring home (i.e. up-front) the cost of driving. Cars with the same tech as the e-scooters to limit their "performance", i.e. impossible to speed and very difficult to get away with all the other forms of bad driving. 
 

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Tom_77 | 2 years ago
1 like

I get the train to work (currently going in at most once a week), with the recent fare increases it's £17 for what would be 35 miles each way in the car. Fuel (diesel @ £1.65/l) is probably about £9.50, maybe another couple of quid for wear and tear, call it £12*.

So driving is still a lot cheaper, takes a similar amount of time (around an hour door to door). Diesel needs to be about £2.50/l before it's cheaper to get the train. Also, the evening trains are only one per hour at the moment. I've got some flexibility in the hours I work, but if it was a strict 9-5 I'd be waiting 45 minutes for the train home.

 

* obviously there are other costs involved with a car - depreciation, insurance, etc. But I pay those whether I drive to work or not.

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ktache replied to Tom_77 | 2 years ago
6 likes

But on a train you don't have to concentrate what you are doing, you can gaze at the passing countryside, read a book (join and use your local library). Eat or drink, when mask usage allows. And any delays, read a few more pages, nothing to get to worried about.

 

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TheBillder replied to ktache | 2 years ago
1 like
ktache wrote:

But on a train you don't have to concentrate what you are doing, you can gaze at the passing countryside, read a book (join and use your local library). Eat or drink, when mask usage allows. And any delays, read a few more pages, nothing to get to worried about.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.c... perhaps?

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Simon E replied to Tom_77 | 2 years ago
1 like

Tom_77 wrote:

I get the train to work (currently going in at most once a week), with the recent fare increases it's £17 for what would be 35 miles each way in the car. Fuel (diesel @ £1.65/l) is probably about £9.50, maybe another couple of quid for wear and tear, call it £12*.

If you're going to ignore the other costs then it's no surprise the car will be cheaper.

But servicing, repairs etc are not negligible costs. A more realistic amount (minus depreciation, insurance, VED etc) while fuel is at £1.65/L would be a minimum of 20p/mile. That's £14 per day. It probably should probably be higher, perhaps around 24p/mile, but will vary with factors such as how much your chosen workshop charges, price of parts and so on (my tyres cost £48 but several people I know spend £150+ per wheel).

Train fares have risen significantly over the years while the cost of driving has dropped or stayed flat. That's a political choice and yet another reason why everyone who voted Conservative since 2010 is part of the problem (well, every government since 1979 IMO, since privatisation & stripping publicly owned assets and placing them into private ownership for profit has been going on since the 1980s).

And of course we've not got to the external costs that driving incurs. Negative externalities of all transport now estimated to cost EU nations €1,000 billion annually, or 7% of GDP.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/24/motorists-should-pay...

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Grahamd replied to Simon E | 2 years ago
3 likes

Simon E wrote:

Tom_77 wrote:

I get the train to work (currently going in at most once a week), with the recent fare increases it's £17 for what would be 35 miles each way in the car. Fuel (diesel @ £1.65/l) is probably about £9.50, maybe another couple of quid for wear and tear, call it £12*.

If you're going to ignore the other costs then it's no surprise the car will be cheaper.

But servicing, repairs etc are not negligible costs. A more realistic amount (minus depreciation, insurance, VED etc) while fuel is at £1.65/L would be a minimum of 20p/mile. That's £14 per day. It probably should probably be higher, perhaps around 24p/mile, but will vary with factors such as how much your chosen workshop charges, price of parts and so on (my tyres cost £48 but several people I know spend £150+ per wheel)

When I last took a local bus (out of necessity) it cost £4.60 for a 6 mile trip. Such pricing will never encourage people to get rid of cars. Is it any wonder that the only frequent users appear to be those who get a free bus pass. 

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andystow replied to Grahamd | 2 years ago
2 likes

Wow! Here in the US, they're definitely not big on public transport, but my local bus system costs $1 (75p) per ride or $3 (£2.25) for unlimited rides in a day, and is half price for students, disabled, veterans, and seniors over 65.

Also, $40 (£30) for an unlimited 30-day pass.

The downside is it's not very convenient, and I can generally get anywhere faster by bicycle.

 

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wtjs replied to Grahamd | 2 years ago
1 like

Is it any wonder that the only frequent users appear to be those who get a free bus pass

Guilty!- but my conscience is clear as I cycle everywhere in the Leyland, Preston, Lancaster, Preston region.

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Rich_cb | 2 years ago
9 likes

IMHO it's all about marginal cost.

For my family to get an evening bus into the city centre costs £8 for a return. The kids travel free.

To drive in and park costs £1.50.

The distance is approx 2 miles.

If you already own a car it makes no economic sense to take public transport.

If we shifted taxes etc on cars so marginal costs were higher but fixed costs lower (revenue neutral overall) then I think more people would take public transport.

*For the avoidance of doubt we don't actually drive into town but it would make economic sense to do so.

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Steve K replied to Rich_cb | 2 years ago
4 likes

Rich_cb wrote:

IMHO it's all about marginal cost. For my family to get an evening bus into the city centre costs £8 for a return. The kids travel free. To drive in and park costs £1.50. The distance is approx 2 miles. If you already own a car it makes no economic sense to take public transport. If we shifted taxes etc on cars so marginal costs were higher but fixed costs lower (revenue neutral overall) then I think more people would take public transport. *For the avoidance of doubt we don't actually drive into town but it would make economic sense to do so.

I couldn't agree more - so much of the cost of driving is are sunk costs not dependent on (or only marginally dependent on) actual mileage: purchase price; depreciation; VED; servicing.  The marginal cost for each journey is a tiny proportion of that (and actually, in terms of value for money, you get better vfm from the investment in a car if you use it more).

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Hirsute replied to Steve K | 2 years ago
2 likes

Most people rent their car these days, so they pay for it whether they use it or not.

If you own the car but don't use it, then it should retain a slightly more value than using it so less incentive to make that journey by car. Those paying 350 a month or so for the car aren't going to spend rich's £8 on the bus

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Steve K replied to Hirsute | 2 years ago
2 likes

hirsute wrote:

Most people rent their car these days, so they pay for it whether they use it or not.

If you own the car but don't use it, then it should retain a slightly more value than using it so less incentive to make that journey by car. Those paying 350 a month or so for the car aren't going to spend rich's £8 on the bus

I take your point, but I'm not sure mileage makes that much difference to depreciation, except for very high mileage.  If it did, then it would be factored into rental costs.

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jh2727 replied to Steve K | 2 years ago
2 likes

Steve K wrote:

hirsute wrote:

Most people rent their car these days, so they pay for it whether they use it or not.

If you own the car but don't use it, then it should retain a slightly more value than using it so less incentive to make that journey by car. Those paying 350 a month or so for the car aren't going to spend rich's £8 on the bus

I take your point, but I'm not sure mileage makes that much difference to depreciation, except for very high mileage.  If it did, then it would be factored into rental costs.

Mileage is usually factored into rental costs - though sometimes short term rentals include unlimited mileage (but you are probably paying £30/day, £900 a month for something fairly basic). Mileage is absolutely factored in on leases and PCP agreements. As for used values, you can clearly see how mileage affects resale values if you look on AutoTrader or some such. For electric vehicles, it is common to rent the battery, even when buying the vehicle, and mileage is also a factor in battery rental agreements. It isn't the largest factor in depreciation, but it is certainly a significant factor.

I mean, it isn't enough to outweigh extortinate bus fairs, but it is a factor. The bus is only reasonably priced if I'm buying a day ticket/family day ticket and making several trips of a few miles each.

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Hirsute replied to Steve K | 2 years ago
2 likes

I used rent to cover various options of paying for use of a car. But as JH2727 says, mileage is taken into account and a clear cost of going over your miles is given. And there is no discount for lower mileage

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Rich_cb replied to Steve K | 2 years ago
2 likes

I'd be in favour of scrapping VED, Insurance Tax and even VAT on car purchases and just loading it all on to fuel or a per mile fee charged at MOT for EVs.

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hawkinspeter replied to Rich_cb | 2 years ago
2 likes

Rich_cb wrote:

I'd be in favour of scrapping VED, Insurance Tax and even VAT on car purchases and just loading it all on to fuel or a per mile fee charged at MOT for EVs.

How about putting the tax on tyres and brake pads as well as fuel? That should penalise heavier EVs and hopefully encourage smoother driving skills.

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Rich_cb replied to hawkinspeter | 2 years ago
6 likes

My issue with that approach is that if you can't afford new tyres or brake pads you can still drive.

You'll just be even more dangerous than normal.

If you can't afford fuel then you're going nowhere.

I do agree that we should find a way of including vehicle size and weight in the taxation system though.

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hawkinspeter replied to Rich_cb | 2 years ago
2 likes

Rich_cb wrote:

My issue with that approach is that if you can't afford new tyres or brake pads you can still drive. You'll just be even more dangerous than normal. If you can't afford fuel then you're going nowhere. I do agree that we should find a way of including vehicle size and weight in the taxation system though.

Good points - I agree that tyres and brake pads aren't a good choice for taxation. Maybe adding some kind of MOT surcharge for vehicle weight although we don't want to dissuade people from keeping vehicles road-worthy.

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peted76 replied to Rich_cb | 2 years ago
3 likes

Rich_cb wrote:

IMHO it's all about marginal cost. For my family to get an evening bus into the city centre costs £8 for a return. The kids travel free. To drive in and park costs £1.50. The distance is approx 2 miles. If you already own a car it makes no economic sense to take public transport. If we shifted taxes etc on cars so marginal costs were higher but fixed costs lower (revenue neutral overall) then I think more people would take public transport. *For the avoidance of doubt we don't actually drive into town but it would make economic sense to do so.

This ^^ - Bus ticket prices can be an outrage for shorter journeys. £15 for one adult and three kids for a return ticket to travel 2miles fom the bus stop 20meters away from my house.

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