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What does it take to get people to leave their car at home?
I'm back in the office; hybrid working (60:40 home/office). I usually cycle (17 miles each way) or do a drive/cycle combo (close enough to the office to avoid the traffic and cycle in normal clothes without getting sweaty) if the weather is a bit inclement (or winter). Bike park at work (many 1000s work at my site) is pretty empty (OK, people are working flexibly) but the traffic queues are almost back to pre-pandemic levels in places. Junior staff in the office, on the lower salaries, wailing about the petrol price increases, which must be around 20%, yet they keep on paying. Some people haven't got a choice, granted, but running the sums, cost of driving must be comparable to the bus or train; or dig a bike out and it cost sweet FA!
I wish Chris Boardman the best luck in the world, but when people are doggedly happy to empty their bank accounts to keep driving you have to wonder.
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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Latest Comments
- kingleo 2 sec ago
They left out The Telegraph and The Daily Mail.
- brooksby 4 min 4 sec ago
Or from ANY car park.
- brooksby 5 min 9 sec ago
Seeing the headline about the BBC article on "e-bikes" tonight reminds me of this beauty, seen at lunchtime…...
- Hirsute 42 min 49 sec ago
13 vehicles crashed through my wall. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyvegw54e5o Time for some proper bollards!
- chrisonabike 44 min 58 sec ago
Perhaps it was one of those terrible military "accidents" where bio-weapons were released and went further than intended or lingered for too long? ...
- RoubaixCube 56 min 20 sec ago
I dont think it should be that narrow. I used to use an older Moon Meteor Vortex Pro - It was a great light for what it was but then I switched to...
- Jbnuts 3 hours 9 min ago
I have one of these and it's a nice bike. It went together well and was of good quality (as far as one can tell such things). It was all faced...
- MinardiM189 3 hours 32 min ago
I think it is time to start a thread about what other Fantasy Cycling Games are out there.
- Secret_squirrel 4 hours 34 min ago
Does ISP mean integrated seat post? Surely the stiffness is irrelevant when the bike is on gravel with fat low pressure rubber? Not that aero...
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76 comments
An absence of Covid, if the alternative is to be public transport. Why the heck are we now drifting back into unnecessary office life?? The first 18 months, Covid seemed to happen to strangers - now it's several people I know affected. People have internalised the idea of the loss to illness of a random week in your life, and I assume, the possibility of long Covid.
Not wishing to re-write the question, but is it really one that says "how high do pump prices have to go before people decide/are forced to make changes?" The 5p Fuel Tax concession is a gimmick and small beer but it's still the wrong direction to go.
Cars are Kyotonite to buses - less passengers, less frequency, less reliable, and of course slower (for both drivers and bus passengers.) Covid is disrupting public transport again currently, which doesn't help get people out of their cars. If you keep being left standing, watching everyone else go by, you'll strive to get motorised. We don't prioritise and invest in the experience of public transport users in anything like the way we often do with drivers.
"Traffic's terrible" becomes a shared agony; drivers leave home earlier and earlier to beat it. Alternatives have to beat that consistently and comprehensively to effect change. It's strange how drivers are happy to deal in £0000s for purchase, £000s for fuel and repair, whereas we deal in £000s for purchase and £00s for spares and repairs. Although we never hear the end of the £200 annual Road Tax of course.
We know the arguments around cycling - infrastructure and attitudes.
Do I buy the "sunk costs" car argument, as in a narrow/ literal interpretation? Does it make that much difference to me in terms of replacement cost (I buy second-hand outright) if I keep my lightly used car (I''m getting towards being a Sunday driver these days!) 3, 4, or 5 years before changing it? I don't feel the cost of a past purchase, once I've made it. I soon forget that 9-10 months of what I normally save up gets swallowed whole on a purchase that will lose 80-90% of its value (value: as in what I've paid out). Aren't most of my motoring costs, including the time at which I'll have the urge to trade in, mainly influenced by how many miles I do?
The best office that I ever worked at had secure basement parking for bikes, showers with lockers, and clean towels so that whatever the weather you could be sure to get to work fresh and find your bike at the end of the day. They had a bike shop and workshop so that you could get service with ease. So three years and 500,000 calories later I was sad to leave.
PS: with thousands in the building it was impossible for most to go by car so WFH was already essential pre-pandemic. People didn't expect to travel by car. Business could do that, especially if government enabled or required it.
My nephew works at Brompton. It's pretty bike friendly.
I heard their bike storage was a bit cramped:
My employer recently introduced a "Green Commuting Subsidy", where they pay staff £2.50 per round trip for commuting in a sustainable way (cycling, walking, public transport or car sharing (car sharing subsidy is at half the rate)).
The subsidy is in the form of a voucher which we can spend on stuff the company makes and sells (outdoor gear and bikes) so the cost to the company is quite low, and the benefit to most staff is high.
They are big on sustainability and this is part of working towards their net zero target.
For me it's some of the non-financial benefits of not using a vehicle. Cycling takes longer but you've turned the entire commute time into exercise and you don't need to stress about calories in exceeding calories out. Cycling early morning with the sun rising; can't beat it and nothing like a pleasant ride home to clear the head. Public transport allows you to read, listen to music/podcasts, even work etc and you get the physical benefit of walking to the station or bus stop. Stopping for a few drinks on the way home isn't an issue. If your commute involves a reasonable amount of walking or cycling then why have a gym membership; if you want resistance training as well then that's easy to achieve at home with a mat and some weights.
Cycling doesn't always take longer. When I first moved to London I had a 10 mile commute to work and used to cycle from Brixton to Woolwich. I'd pass a colleague at New Cross in his car, give him a wave and be in the office 15-30 minutes before him.
I think both sunk costs and social factors are important. On the latter I've known several people who thought even trains - never mind buses - were essentially for the unwashed. I found this rather odd as these people weren't exactly aristocrats themselves. That might seem extreme but I wouldn't underestimate the general dislike of "public" stuff. Most people much prefer their own space and certainly dislike sharing it with others. So cars are preferred. Then there is a "door to door" factor. Your car might not make it exactly to the door of your destination but it will often be closer than you'd end up using e.g. a train.
The answer is in the question.
Why would you leave your car at home when it is still costing money whether it is used or not.
If we really want to see a shift in behaviour it isn't leaving the car at home that we should aspire to, but ending the desire for car ownership in the first place.
I haven't owned a car for over 25 years, admittedly I do have access to a pool car at work, but realistically the majority of my motoring needs are covered by being a member of a local car share club. You adapt to not owning a car, just as motorists have adapted to believing that car ownership is the only way to travel in the 21st century.
Luckily, more and more young people are turning their noses up at the idea of car ownership. Perhaps we might turn a corner in a generation or two.
Now this is going to sound weird, but maybe cycling organisations should get into the car club business?
There's little incentive for car manufacturers, as ultimately it will lead to fewer sales.
You can provide all the cycling infrastructure you like, but if there's a car on the drive and you're already paying for it, for some it's just too easy to use it.
Weirdly, there is a shift in car sales towards higher margins at the expense of low margin cheaper cars already happening as the automotive industry becomes ever more reliant on EV's. Already the cheapest cars on sale from the major volume manufacturers are being dropped. Where most manufacturers were selling cars from approx £14k upwards only a few years ago, there has been a relatively large shift to entry level cars now costing approx £18k and upwards. Therefore manufacturers are happy to sell fewer cars as long as they can keep their profits at similar levels and this will continue as Euro 7? and the uptake of EV's continues.
Global private vehicle reached peak like what 10 years ago?
As an elder millenial I cant see enough positives to owning something that costs so much to be parked outside my workplace for 8 hours a day, or on my drive over night.
Even living in a fairly rural area its pretty easy to not use a car. Bus, uber, standard taxi are all options to get me the 4 mile to my nearest town if I cba with the ride. Even the tescos shop can be delivered. Other week I got back from a 60miler, my shop turned up as I was sorting my bike post ride, he'd done 60miles and made 20 drops, already more efficient then me making a trip by car.
I also think there will be a shift in generations time, as the youngers more openly embrace WFH, self-driving uber style options and the such, until then tax the dinosaurs into extinction imo.
quite, people moan about the price of fuel, but buying or leasing a car will be in the region of £300 a month.
Even for people that own a car, with no payments, and ignoring depreciation, we are looking at £600-£800 a year before taking the car anywhere (MOT/Insurance/servicing)
While the incremental cost of using it is £0.15p per mile. But if we look at the number of occasions where a car is essential (perhaps once or twice a month for me) then hiring a car on those occasions would be cheaper than owning a car. I'm not yet at the point of selling my existing car, but I like to think I will not be replacing it with a new one.
Thing is we've engineered car dependency into society. It's not that people prefer cars but that we've made them the convenient choice and a tool of habit. To change that is not just a matter of individuals choosing an alternative, but creating urban environments that reset the convenience.
A lot of it is socially conditioned. We live in a world that was designed to look like General Motors' 1939 world fair exhibit, aided by a postwar US govt that wished to reward the big 3 for their contributions to the war effort, establish a highway network for rapid military movement, and give an economic boost by building huge amounts of suburban tract housing for returning servicemen. It's all that 3-4 generations have known. Other countries followed suit. The distance between home and work and the amount of time they're willing to dedicate for travel plays a big role.
People underestimate the cost of driving by 50% according to this paper in Nature:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01118-w
The authors recommend that car adverts should be forced to include real costs per mile.
People underestimate the cost of driving by 50% according to this paper in Nature
And this willing self-deception, and complicity with the manufacturer, is most evident in the oft-heard 'I get X mpg', where 'X' is the largest number displayed by the already absurdly optimistic trip computer when travelling downhill.
I think people also underestimate the cost of public transport. See my other comment.
Out of curiosity I had search on auto trader. 2009 Hyundai i10 with MOT £950. Tax £30. Full comp insurance with commuting just under £250. Even with fuel and a service it'd very likely be cheaper over a year than my £4280 annual season ticket. I'll have to buy the ticket again next year, the car will probably last out a few more with service and MOT costs probably less than £500 and recurring insurance obvs.
I think as well as cheaper public transport we need to embrace e-bikes. There seems a lot of animosity from some cyclists (dear god not a dig at people here!) But they're key to getting less able people onto bikes. Maybe even offer a pannier rack at point of sale and encourage their use for short shopping trips.
There's nothing wrong with e-bikes at all.
Ebikes are not only for the less able - Herself and I have our carbon road bikes, our MTBs, and an ebike each. They (the ebikes) replaced the car two years ago to enable her (and me as escort/mobile mechanic) to do a longish commute to a very demanding on-her-feet-all-day teaching job without being utterly exhausted and to help us deliver shopping etc to elderly parents on weekends without needing a car. Some on here insist they're just for lazy people - and at the same time talk about how they use their cars for shopping, it confounds me.
I've never slated anyone for having an e-bike but I definitely had an emotional response internally when one was suggested to me for the london commute. I was surprised by the strength of my reaction. There is no logic to it, I guess that might be where others are coming from. I'm sure I'll change my mind, I'm something of a late adopter.
My commute is nine miles each way right now. I'm considering moving, possibly over fifteen miles from work. At that distance, I'd either drive a couple of days a week and cycle every other day, or get an e-bike. I'm not going to spend over two hours a day cycling to and from work (although in the winters it sometimes already takes me that long.)
You're probably right. It's weird though that nobody (as far as I've seen) has a go at people for taking the train or bus to work but some strenuously object to people using ebikes, which are virtually non-polluting (obviously there's the electricity production to be considered but we do use a green tariff) and can provide 70% or more of the exercise. I spend most of the 25kms each way we commute riding completely under my own power over the 25km/h cutoff, the motor basically gives me a shove uphill and a fast pull away from the lights (which contributes hugely to safety on a London commute), which saves muscle strain and leaves me in good shape for "proper" riding at the weekends.
Each to their own of course, though I've never known anyone have a go on one without returning with a big smile on their face!
I've not read this cost comparison on car use but it's worth pointing out that most tend to use the cost of a new car as a base. Now I don't know about you, but I've never bought a new vehicle in 40 years of motoring (six cars and 11 motorbikes if you most know). Until the pandemic, a car would lose about half of its value in the first 2-3 years on average. Secondhand cars have gained in value a bit since the pandemic.
My current car is now 16 years old and I've owned it for 11 years. It didn't cost an arm and a leg to buy, it's been pretty reliable in that time and no, it doesn't guzzle fuel.
One of my neighbours runs a Morris Minor, which costs buttons to run as it's on classic insurance and there's no need to pay ULEZ fees, MOT charges or VED. Someone with smarts could easily search out a good classic cars (old Mercs and Volvos can run for ever and Landys can be rebuilt over and over again), repower it with a more modern engine and run it on LPG. Any vehicle 40 years old or more can be classed as a 'historic vehicle' and my classic motorbike now falls into this category - no VED and the insurance is £39/year fully comp.
Cheaper and more reliable public transport, which would surely come if more people used it?
Or if you build it, they will come? Sadly I think you could gold plate the buses, serve champagne and canapes, and make it all free, and still many would not want to try it.
Public transport is quite good in my city (Edinburgh). The buses are clean and modern, the information about which bus to take and when it's coming is fairly accurate and easy to access, the fares are ok ish. You can pay by debit card, and if you'd have spent less with a day ticket than the individual journey costs, that's all you get charged. Most routes go via the centre which is not ideal, and you get charged again if you need to change bus, but apart from that, it's decent.
And yet still lots of people drive into the city. I cycle past many on my commute, all looking glum, tired and bored. On the bus they could snooze, read, doom-scroll, etc.
I think the problem is tribal - these people are not bus people, and they don't want to risk sitting next to a bus person in case they catch bus fleas or poverty germs or something. "I have an Audi that I pay hundreds a month for and therefore I cannot share a bus with my inferiors. This attitude costs me hundreds more in fuel and parking but it is worth it to avoid the underclass and demonstrate my superiority."
Cars are a status symbol and an outward marking of identity and position in a hierarchy. It takes a lot to change that. I must admit that my cycling is also an identity - I have a nice bike and nice kit and am seen to be active. We need to think about how we can change the psychology almost as much as the service and infrastructure.
Truer than true! These people, some of whom were featured in a recent dispute between an Edinburgh golf club and scum wishing to cycle past safely, would rather die than be seen on a bus or bike. I concur with at least part of their aspirations.
I agree with what you say. Just going by things I've read people don't seem to want to give up cars and blame it on public transport being costly, unreliable, not regular enough blah blah.
Personally I think it would take a multipronged attack on private cars to get people to not use them. Petrol needs to cost more, parking should be extortionate and heavily policed, a real leap in VED prices.
As we turn to more electric cars on the road I'd like to see a pay per mile tax, where as soon as the car starts moving thats £5 added to what you have to pay. Maybe that would force some of the people i work with who drive a mile to work to actually think twice about that journey.
Unfortunately the car mobs voices are too loud to let any of these things to happen
There's also a big dose of "some people sometimes need a car and hence nobody should use public transport". I'm very tired of people saying "but what if you're disabled?" as an excuse to carry on with their driving tiny distances. The perfect cannot be the enemy* of the good.
*Auto correct offered me "enema" there and it took a major effort not to use it...
I ride to work, shops and take my daughter to nursery and to local amenities on the my bike. However if I want to take a family trip up to the peaks for a hike, or places where public transport is tricky to reach I dont want to be penalised with additional taxes.
I don't want to be 'penalised' with taxes generally, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be.
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