Boardman says cycling on British roads is mentally exhausting

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

As a car driver I find women rarely have any road manners once behind the wheel. A bit like expecting the door to be held open but not doing the same in return. It's a rare day a women will let you out of a junction in my experience. Staring straight ahead and pretending they can't see you is order of the day.

They also seem to be tailgaters, particulary in 30 zones. If it's a chav doing it then you know it's some sort of male challenge to go faster and you go faster and they go faster but with women as soon as you leave the 30 and crack on they're nowhere to be seen. Must the same mentality as people that park next to you in an empty car park (which really pisses me off).

(now awaiting incoming on these statements)

Women are generally as polite as men to me. Must be something particular about you they don't like.

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

As a car driver I find women rarely have any road manners once behind the wheel. A bit like expecting the door to be held open but not doing the same in return. It's a rare day a women will let you out of a junction in my experience. Staring straight ahead and pretending they can't see you is order of the day.

They also seem to be tailgaters, particulary in 30 zones. If it's a chav doing it then you know it's some sort of male challenge to go faster and you go faster and they go faster but with women as soon as you leave the 30 and crack on they're nowhere to be seen. Must the same mentality as people that park next to you in an empty car park (which really pisses me off).

(now awaiting incoming on these statements)

Yet women are much less likely to kill you or even commit an offence. 

- Men account for 73% of all worldwide road traffic deaths, three times the rate of women;
In Britain men account for 74% road traffic deaths, 70% of serious injuries and 59% slight injuries on the roads;
- Men drive twice as many miles per year, on average, than women;
- In the UK, 80% of men and 67% of women have a valid driving licence;
- In Britain men make up 82% of cycling deaths and serious injuries, young male cyclists are the most over-represented age group, accounting for 30% of all cycling casualties;
- Female pedestrians account for over half of journeys by foot in the UK (52%), but men make up the majority of pedestrian casualties in the UK (57%);
- In Britain 95% of convictions for deaths caused by dangerous driving are against men;
- In the UK, the number of male drivers reported having driven under the influence of drugs, was four times higher than the number of female drivers who admitted to the same offence.

JeevesBath wrote:

"they have a false sense of security inside their metal box."

That's probably very true. I moved from the UK to Turkey a couple of years ago and expected cycling over here to be a nightmare as the standard of driving is pretty bad but I've found that it isn't because to survive here drivers have to be aware of what's going  on around them so you rarely get a driver that hasn't seen you or ignores you. OK, yes, just because a driver has seen me does not mean he isn't going to still pull out in front of me because I'm going faster than he'd expect a cyclist to but here you're expected be aware of the other traffic,  look after yourself and be careful whereas I have the impression some cyclists in the UK think they should be able to cycle around without a care and let other road users be careful for them. That was certainly my experience when I lived in London and saw some of the dangerous positions cyclists would put themselves in around lorries and buses. Here in Turkey, being chased by the crazy stray dogs is far more frightening than the traffic.

One problem I've now noticed in the UK on the couple of occasions I've taken my bike back there is the sheer volume of cars on the roads. How I ever put up with cycling around London I'll never know. Here I live in a large city but the traffic volume isn't as bad as the UK and very quiet once I get out of town. When I've been back to my parent's place in Lancashire even out in the country there was just no escape from constant traffic.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

Whilst finding it very frustrating, I do find anti-cycling angst fascinating. 

Primarily this is driven by people being told to resent cycling and cyclists. That mantra is primarily driven by the media, who these days use cycling as clickbait. 

Anti-cyclist media coverage permeated out of London, with the viewpoint of the cyclist as the lycra lout quickly taking hold nationally. 

The reason for the 'success' in the adoption of this viewpoint is far more interesting in my opinion. People are angered by cyclists. They are angered by cyclists because cyclists, simply cycling, force drivers to question their own competency, and put drivers on the spot.

You get very little training in how to negotiate, look out for, basically interact with cyclists when learning to drive. so, being blunt, most drivers really are unsure what to do when coming across them. You come across a cyclist, what do you do... ? how much space do I need to give? when is it safe to overtake? etc etc.

Chuck in social pressures that say as a driver, you should be obsessed with getting from a to b as quickly as possible, and you quickly have a frustrating situation.

The initial response when confronted by something you don't know or feel comfortable with is to feel angry and to attack whatever is making you feel this way.

So poor old cyclist is just riding along, but inadvertently is causing distress, anger in many drivers that drive past them. 

You can see why, having experienced these unreasonable moments of anger, drivers are all too willing to jump onto a band wagon that says the cause of their frustration is the problem not them... and here we are. 

The answer is very simple - Education. 

Make drivers more aware and competent around negotiating cyclists and a lot of this can all go away. 

As much as we are told otherwise, cycling behaviour is irrelevant to this issue. How any of us behave will not make a difference. As long as there is incompetence and lack of driver training out there, there will always be anger and hostility. 

 

 

Maybe you're right. When I learnt to drive 40 years ago the instructor spent a lesson on the subject, but that was seen as a strange waste of my money by most contemporaries, and I don't suppose this has improved. 

BikeJon wrote:

I tried using NCN and off-road routes but they were a fair bit slower and longer and a lot of dog walkers are muppets. They use those long lead things and completely cover even wide paths with them. A lot of them wear headphones so warnings fall on deaf ears. So you come to a complete stop before they have noticed you and then they blame it on the dog and try and drag the poor thing to them. Just take 2 steps towards the dog!
This happened so often I would get worked up and frustrated and go back to the roads again.

Yeah, unfortunately the 'NCN' is often not fit for purpose. I could use a 6-mile stretch for my commute, but it's shared use, full of gates and about half of it is stupidly muddy unless there's a drought on (as in if you ride at anything above walking speed you get covered in mud).

I take my chances, and an extra mile, on the roads.

davel wrote:

BikeJon wrote:

I tried using NCN and off-road routes but they were a fair bit slower and longer and a lot of dog walkers are muppets. They use those long lead things and completely cover even wide paths with them. A lot of them wear headphones so warnings fall on deaf ears. So you come to a complete stop before they have noticed you and then they blame it on the dog and try and drag the poor thing to them. Just take 2 steps towards the dog! This happened so often I would get worked up and frustrated and go back to the roads again.

Yeah, unfortunately the 'NCN' is often not fit for purpose. I could use a 6-mile stretch for my commute, but it's shared use, full of gates and about half of it is stupidly muddy unless there's a drought on (as in if you ride at anything above walking speed you get covered in mud). I take my chances, and an extra mile, on the roads.

We have one of those - silly gradients. 11 gates in 6 miles,  surface fit only for off road tyres, dog walkers and horsists littering the place. Then we get the idiot from Sustrans telling the local rag that " it is a great boon to commuting cyclists ", so you can imagine how the local motons react to seeing anyone on the road.

CXR94Di2 wrote:

I've just used Avenue Verte in France, a brilliant segregated cycle path 3 metres wide that goes on for 70 miles or more towards Paris from Dieppe.

I've been meaning to do that... what's the surface like?  Does it visit towns or just go straight through empty countryside (think it used to be a train line?)

jollygoodvelo wrote:

CXR94Di2 wrote:

I've just used Avenue Verte in France, a brilliant segregated cycle path 3 metres wide that goes on for 70 miles or more towards Paris from Dieppe.

I've been meaning to do that... what's the surface like?  Does it visit towns or just go straight through empty countryside (think it used to be a train line?)

The section we used for 35 miles was tarmac just like a road. In some places the tree roots have lifted it a bit, but only tiny portion of the route was like it. Absolutely fantastic route

The route passes by and through towns. Neuchatel was a town we stopped at a supermarket for food and drink refreshments

earth wrote:

It is in London.  A 5 mile ride from Paddington to Liverpool street takes me over an hour and after 30 mins I'm ready to ride on the pavement or walk.

Just thinking that must be a crap ride, then looked it up.  If you use the parks and CS3, it actually looks pretty good. Have you tried this route?: https://cyclestreets.net/journey/58244756/#balanced

Simmo72 wrote:

Driving mentality is getting more aggressive and will only get worse until self driving cars are common place, 2040, our roads will be awesome for cycling.

 

Right now we need

More police to enforce the laws.  No point having a stronger pentalty on using a mobile if 99.9% still get away with it.

More tech to support the police and prosecution.  ie more onboard camera tech, make it compulsory, insurance companies could afford to give them away as it will save billions in the long term.

Road and Transport authorities to actually put the cyclist as a valued road user.  We are the joke of europe.  Some of the recent changes on local roads are a complete joke.  ie making a dual carriageway single, but rather than using the left over space for a cyclist section, it is completely inaccessable.....dumbarse.

Stronger penalties, ban people who are dangerous, sick of seeing repeat offenders

Driving evaluation tests

Keep on prosecuting cyclists riding recklessly

Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education.

 

 

You forgot to make car drivers, (or vehicle drivers) responsible for accidents unless otherwise proven. That might go someway to toning down the aggression.

I think half of the problem is car drivers get frustrated with their slow progress in traffic, but what they can't comprehend is that it's because there are just too many cars on the roads. Back in the day, my mum and dad only had the one car, most folk only had one car. Everyone who didn't caught a bus, rode a motorbike, or cycled to work.

These days mum, dad and little Johnny all have a car, there's only so much road.

maviczap wrote:

Simmo72 wrote:

Driving mentality is getting more aggressive and will only get worse until self driving cars are common place, 2040, our roads will be awesome for cycling.

 

Right now we need

More police to enforce the laws.  No point having a stronger pentalty on using a mobile if 99.9% still get away with it.

More tech to support the police and prosecution.  ie more onboard camera tech, make it compulsory, insurance companies could afford to give them away as it will save billions in the long term.

Road and Transport authorities to actually put the cyclist as a valued road user.  We are the joke of europe.  Some of the recent changes on local roads are a complete joke.  ie making a dual carriageway single, but rather than using the left over space for a cyclist section, it is completely inaccessable.....dumbarse.

Stronger penalties, ban people who are dangerous, sick of seeing repeat offenders

Driving evaluation tests

Keep on prosecuting cyclists riding recklessly

Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education.

 

 

 

You forgot to make car drivers, (or vehicle drivers) responsible for accidents unless otherwise proven. That might go someway to toning down the aggression.

I think half of the problem is car drivers get frustrated with their slow progress in traffic, but what they can't comprehend is that it's because there are just too many cars on the roads. Back in the day, my mum and dad only had the one car, most folk only had one car. Everyone who didn't caught a bus, rode a motorbike, or cycled to work.

These days mum, dad and little Johnny all have a car, there's only so much road.

true - but I can't help think that a good part of the frustration comes from unrealistic expectations - the glamorous images on adverts or any film with Vin Diesel, combined with inappropriately overpowered cars for 99% of their journeys - give them all hillman imps and watch their egos deflate in inverse proportion to the rise in road safety!

beezus fufoon wrote:

maviczap wrote:

Simmo72 wrote:

Driving mentality is getting more aggressive and will only get worse until self driving cars are common place, 2040, our roads will be awesome for cycling.

 

Right now we need

More police to enforce the laws.  No point having a stronger pentalty on using a mobile if 99.9% still get away with it.

More tech to support the police and prosecution.  ie more onboard camera tech, make it compulsory, insurance companies could afford to give them away as it will save billions in the long term.

Road and Transport authorities to actually put the cyclist as a valued road user.  We are the joke of europe.  Some of the recent changes on local roads are a complete joke.  ie making a dual carriageway single, but rather than using the left over space for a cyclist section, it is completely inaccessable.....dumbarse.

Stronger penalties, ban people who are dangerous, sick of seeing repeat offenders

Driving evaluation tests

Keep on prosecuting cyclists riding recklessly

Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education, Education.

 

 

 

You forgot to make car drivers, (or vehicle drivers) responsible for accidents unless otherwise proven. That might go someway to toning down the aggression.

I think half of the problem is car drivers get frustrated with their slow progress in traffic, but what they can't comprehend is that it's because there are just too many cars on the roads. Back in the day, my mum and dad only had the one car, most folk only had one car. Everyone who didn't caught a bus, rode a motorbike, or cycled to work.

These days mum, dad and little Johnny all have a car, there's only so much road.

true - but I can't help think that a good part of the frustration comes from unrealistic expectations - the glamorous images on adverts or any film with Vin Diesel, combined with inappropriately overpowered cars for 99% of their journeys - give them all hillman imps and watch their egos deflate in inverse proportion to the rise in road safety!

Thats true: they bought their pint sized SUV on the back of the adverts promising that the city would be their playground, only to discover the reality of nose-to-tail stop-start queuing. But hey, I'm sure it's all the fault of those darned pesky cyclists...

BrianMcMahon wrote:

Riding in Britain is a joke.  Every day you get on your bike your subjected to someone either on foot or in a vehicle who won't treat you with basic human compassion.

Had three incidents on the commute to work yesterday, one in the morning where a car took offence to me going over speed bumps faster than her so decided to race me to the last one and then cut me off at the junction just after it.  

Coming to a junction to turn right and a van comes across my path on the wrong side of the road, now you think the driver would be looking in his direction of travel....nope he was looking left and didn't see me until he turned his head....just wow!!

Last one was on a shared path, lady walking her big dog who had to restrain him from wanting to rip my bike apart, i said thank you and she turned and said Go F*** Yourself.

Must just be Scotland and thats with front and back cameras, love reviewing the footage, no Lycra for me.  Full body armour next time!!

Nah it isn't just Scotland. It happens in other parts of the UK.  The only advantage of being a woman is if you make it clear you are female on a bike male drivers  and the majority of male pedestrians behave themselves.  Female drivers and  majority of female pedestrians don't unless they know they are being watched.   And shared paths with female dog walkers are a joke.

Bluebug wrote:

BrianMcMahon wrote:

Riding in Britain is a joke.  Every day you get on your bike your subjected to someone either on foot or in a vehicle who won't treat you with basic human compassion.

Had three incidents on the commute to work yesterday, one in the morning where a car took offence to me going over speed bumps faster than her so decided to race me to the last one and then cut me off at the junction just after it.  

Coming to a junction to turn right and a van comes across my path on the wrong side of the road, now you think the driver would be looking in his direction of travel....nope he was looking left and didn't see me until he turned his head....just wow!!

Last one was on a shared path, lady walking her big dog who had to restrain him from wanting to rip my bike apart, i said thank you and she turned and said Go F*** Yourself.

Must just be Scotland and thats with front and back cameras, love reviewing the footage, no Lycra for me.  Full body armour next time!!

Nah it isn't just Scotland. It happens in other parts of the UK.  The only advantage of being a woman is if you make it clear you are female on a bike male drivers  and the majority of male pedestrians behave themselves.  Female drivers and  majority of female pedestrians don't unless they know they are being watched.   And shared paths with female dog walkers are a joke.

This is the opposite to the (unscientific) experiences my wife and I have. She regularly gets back from her shortish rides having had some abuse from a bloke in a car/van.

We ride similar routes, occasionally together, but I do much more - and I commute, whereas she doesn't. We ride really similarly, but I'm faster. Her abuse:mileage ratio is shocking compared to mine. Not sure what the cause of the difference is, but I'd bet that a significant factor is that from the back she's obviously a woman on a bike and I'm obviously a six foot lump with a shaved head.

davel wrote:

Bluebug wrote:

BrianMcMahon wrote:

Riding in Britain is a joke.  Every day you get on your bike your subjected to someone either on foot or in a vehicle who won't treat you with basic human compassion.

Had three incidents on the commute to work yesterday, one in the morning where a car took offence to me going over speed bumps faster than her so decided to race me to the last one and then cut me off at the junction just after it.  

Coming to a junction to turn right and a van comes across my path on the wrong side of the road, now you think the driver would be looking in his direction of travel....nope he was looking left and didn't see me until he turned his head....just wow!!

Last one was on a shared path, lady walking her big dog who had to restrain him from wanting to rip my bike apart, i said thank you and she turned and said Go F*** Yourself.

Must just be Scotland and thats with front and back cameras, love reviewing the footage, no Lycra for me.  Full body armour next time!!

Nah it isn't just Scotland. It happens in other parts of the UK.  The only advantage of being a woman is if you make it clear you are female on a bike male drivers  and the majority of male pedestrians behave themselves.  Female drivers and  majority of female pedestrians don't unless they know they are being watched.   And shared paths with female dog walkers are a joke.

This is the opposite to the (unscientific) experiences my wife and I have. She regularly gets back from her shortish rides having had some abuse from a bloke in a car/van. We ride similar routes, occasionally together, but I do much more - and I commute, whereas she doesn't. We ride really similarly, but I'm faster. Her abuse:mileage ratio is shocking compared to mine. Not sure what the cause of the difference is, but I'd bet that a significant factor is that from the back she's obviously a woman on a bike and I'm obviously a six foot lump with a shaved head.

Same here, I am female and often get shouted at by guys in cars or pedestrians (never women). Not so much in winter when the layers of clothers don't make it obvious that I am a woman. I ride in Birmingham.