Bernard Hinault: “Froome is not part of the legend of the sport"

Simon E wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

I didn't start the discussion about the NHS I just added to it. Much like you are now doing.

True.

@alansmurphy - I replied to OldMixte, who was the first to mention the NHS. Rich_cb had a different perspective on that. So flame me, I won't mind.

Usually if you want to bring a discussion back to the subject of the title you will get a better response by being polite, otherwise you'll just prolong the slanging match. And if you can't tolerate discussions going OT then you really shouldn't play on the internet for any length of time.

 

It is not uncommon for a discussion to go off on a small tangent Simon.

It is also, unfortunately, not uncommon for Rich_cb (we all know what the 'cb' stands for) to wade into an unrelated point and behave like a tosser. He has an opinion, fine, often boring but fine. He then attempts to belittle others with the most nonsensical argument you are ever likely to see by providing shit evidence and ignoring any counter evidence. It feels like arguing with Tommy Robinson after a Muslim nurse has just saved his life "but all the others are murdering extremists"... As demonstrated by his arrogance towards Don (who just likes a ruck for a laugh)...

alansmurphy wrote:

It is not uncommon for a discussion to go off on a small tangent Simon.

 

It is also, unfortunately, not uncommon for Rich_cb (we all know what the 'cb' stands for) to wade into an unrelated point and behave like a tosser. He has an opinion, fine, often boring but fine. He then attempts to belittle others with the most nonsensical argument you are ever likely to see by providing shit evidence and ignoring any counter evidence. It feels like arguing with Tommy Robinson after a Muslim nurse has just saved his life "but all the others are murdering extremists"... As demonstrated by his arrogance towards Don (who just likes a ruck for a laugh)...

 

Pot meet Kettle.

You've waded in to this debate and tried some really poor guilt by association nonsense.

'You're just like Tommy Robinson'

'You'd prefer the Daily Mail'.

It's laughable.

If you've got proof that the Welsh Assembly Government do not control the Welsh Health budget please post it, otherwise I'll just assume you're resorting to ad hominems because you have no other option.

Rich_cb wrote:

don simon wrote:

Rich_cb is selective quoting shocker, this quote then goes on to point out the lack of parity which is the basis of the article.

 

I apologise as you are the expert on everything and I look forward to you getting the personal jibes in too rather than reading the whole fucking article. Oops, too late on that one...

I'm going to sit back and watch you try and demonstrate something or other in another pointless argument, my little internet warrior hero.

The level of spending on healthcare is decided by the Welsh Assembly Government. If Wales is spending too little, and I happen to agree that we are, then the fault lies primarily with the Welsh Assembly Government. The block grant is large enough to allow a significant increase in health spending. The Welsh Assembly Government chooses not to do this. As I said, if any of that is wrong feel free to correct me. Otherwise it's just another debate which you have lost.

Which it obviously isn't, as there is a clear underfunding of the NHS is Wales rather than the mis management by Labour, that's not to say that Labour don't make any mistakes. It would bew stupid to just blame one cause. But, there is no denying that the current funding formula puts Wales under pressure. Which budget do you suggest the money is taken from in order to make up the shortcomings? And then how do you propose to make up for the shortcomings of the hole that you've just made in that budget? Ad infinitum.

So, we can indeed attribute the cause of the problem in Welsh NHS as being the funding, something you have closed your eyes to. I imagin

Can't be arsed...

don simon wrote:

Which it obviously isn't, as there is a clear underfunding of the NHS is Wales rather than the mis management by Labour, that's not to say that Labour don't make any mistakes. It would bew stupid to just blame one cause. But, there is no denying that the current funding formula puts Wales under pressure. Which budget do you suggest the money is taken from in order to make up the shortcomings? And then how do you propose to make up for the shortcomings of the hole that you've just made in that budget? Ad infinitum.

So, we can indeed attribute the cause of the problem in Welsh NHS as being the funding, something you have closed your eyes to. I imagin

Can't be arsed...

Look at the entire Welsh Assembly Budget. Has the Welsh Assembly Government implemented any policies that are not in place in England?

Examples off the top of my head: subsidised tuition fees, free prescriptions, free hospital parking.

The tuition fees policy alone costs hundreds of millions per year.

Implementing that policy was a choice made by the Welsh Assembly Government.

They could have chosen to spend that money on the NHS and it would have made up a significant portion of the shortfall identified in your link.

The block grant is large enough to properly fund the Welsh NHS, unfortunately the Labour party prioritise spending on other areas and as a consequence the Welsh NHS is underfunded and underperforming.

Rich_cb wrote:

don simon wrote:

Which it obviously isn't, as there is a clear underfunding of the NHS is Wales rather than the mis management by Labour, that's not to say that Labour don't make any mistakes. It would bew stupid to just blame one cause. But, there is no denying that the current funding formula puts Wales under pressure. Which budget do you suggest the money is taken from in order to make up the shortcomings? And then how do you propose to make up for the shortcomings of the hole that you've just made in that budget? Ad infinitum.

So, we can indeed attribute the cause of the problem in Welsh NHS as being the funding, something you have closed your eyes to. I imagin

Can't be arsed...

Look at the entire Welsh Assembly Budget. Has the Welsh Assembly Government implemented any policies that are not in place in England? Examples off the top of my head: subsidised tuition fees, free prescriptions, free hospital parking. The tuition fees policy alone costs hundreds of millions per year. Implementing that policy was a choice made by the Welsh Assembly Government. They could have chosen to spend that money on the NHS and it would have made up a significant portion of the shortfall identified in your link. The block grant is large enough to properly fund the Welsh NHS, unfortunately the Labour party prioritise spending on other areas and as a consequence the Welsh NHS is underfunded and underperforming.

don simon wrote:

Look at the entire Welsh Assembly Budget. Has the Welsh Assembly Government implemented any policies that are not in place in England? Examples off the top of my head: subsidised tuition fees, free prescriptions, free hospital parking. The tuition fees policy alone costs hundreds of millions per year. Implementing that policy was a choice made by the Welsh Assembly Government. They could have chosen to spend that money on the NHS and it would have made up a significant portion of the shortfall identified in your link. The block grant is large enough to properly fund the Welsh NHS, unfortunately the Labour party prioritise spending on other areas and as a consequence the Welsh NHS is underfunded and underperforming.

[/quote]

Once that emoji appears you know Don has lost the argument.

Better luck next time.

Rich_cb wrote:

don simon wrote:

Look at the entire Welsh Assembly Budget. Has the Welsh Assembly Government implemented any policies that are not in place in England? Examples off the top of my head: subsidised tuition fees, free prescriptions, free hospital parking. The tuition fees policy alone costs hundreds of millions per year. Implementing that policy was a choice made by the Welsh Assembly Government. They could have chosen to spend that money on the NHS and it would have made up a significant portion of the shortfall identified in your link. The block grant is large enough to properly fund the Welsh NHS, unfortunately the Labour party prioritise spending on other areas and as a consequence the Welsh NHS is underfunded and underperforming.

 

Once that emoji appears you know Don has lost the argument. Better luck next time.[/quote]

There are no winners , only losers in an argument (which, sadly is how you seem to see things). Equally in a debate it is not your position as a debater to decide whether you have won or whether someone has lost.

.

don simon wrote:

There are no winners , only losers in an argument (which, sadly is how you seem to see things). Equally in a debate it is not your position as a debater to decide whether you have won or whether someone has lost.

When you stop arguing your point and resort to obsfucation and emojis it's pretty clear you have no comeback.

It's pretty much routine in any discussion with you. Bluster, evidence you're wrong, emoji, flounce off.

Rich_cb wrote:

You clearly don't live in Wales. We've had the glorious Labour party running our NHS for 20 years now. For some reason it underperforms relative to the English NHS (run by evil Tories) on most objective measures. Don't let that fact dissuade you from your ideological rant though.

I'm afraid that sounds suspiciously like Tory campaign rhetoric.

Sadly, I haven't lived there for the last 18 years. I don't know what powers the Assembly has and Wales still has MPs in Parliament. However, even a truly incompetent Labour administration would not run down and privatise every public service they can, flogging it off to investors on the cheap.

And I don't see how the AMs can run the NHS in Wales directly; isn't that's the job of the Trusts and their management? But performance is a separate issue from the machinations of central government. Shropshire NHS Trust, used by lots of people living in Mid-Wales, has been underperforming for many years despite it our MP's claiming it to be his no.1 priority, and the "Future Fit" proposals have been widely criticised.

Simon E wrote:

Sadly, I haven't lived there for the last 18 years. I don't know what powers the Assembly has and Wales still has MPs in Parliament. However, even a truly incompetent Labour administration would not run down and privatise every public service they can, flogging it off to investors on the cheap.

And I don't see how the AMs can run the NHS in Wales directly; isn't that's the job of the Trusts and their management? But performance is a separate issue from the machinations of central government. Shropshire NHS Trust, used by lots of people living in Mid-Wales, has been underperforming for many years despite it our MP's claiming it to be his no.1 priority, and the "Future Fit" proposals have been widely criticised.

You either hold politicians responsible for the state of the NHS or you don't.

You can't criticise the Conservatives for the state of the English NHS then absolve the Welsh Assembly Government of responsibility for the NHS in Wales.

Ultimately the Welsh NHS is run by the Welsh Assembly Government. They decide how much of the budget to allocate to healthcare, they take responsibility for policy decisions etc.

If you look at waiting times for operations many are far far longer in Wales. If you look at waiting times in A+E, people wait longer in Wales.

As someone who's lived in Wales my whole life and actually works for the Welsh NHS it is very frustrating to see the architects of that poor performance avoid the blame time and time again.

Rich_cb wrote:

You either hold politicians responsible for the state of the NHS or you don't.

So an AM in Cardiff has the same powers as the Health Minister in London?

Yeah, right!

Not to mention the lobbyists and corporations desperate to get their hands on more of a very lucrative market.

Rich_cb wrote:

As someone who's lived in Wales my whole life and actually works for the Welsh NHS it is very frustrating to see the architects of that poor performance avoid the blame time and time again.

I understand that and sympathise with anyone slogging away in the NHS in the current economic and political situation.

You haven't declared any political affiliations. Also, simply being employed there, or living in Wales for part or all your life, doesn't necessarily give you greater insight than anyone else. My parents are 80 and have lived in North Wales all their lives but on its own that is meaningless. Each region is very different so, while I'm open to the possibility that the Assembly's decisions may be partly to blame, I doubt you know how each Trust and hospital is run. All the above mean that I have to take your statements as opinions rather than facts.

Meanwhile if you feel that Froome paying UK taxes is going to help then why not drop him a note? He visited Wales with Michelle last year to meet some of her family so perhaps a polite request might see him dig into his pockets to help a worth cause.

Simon E wrote:

So an AM in Cardiff has the same powers as the Health Minister in London?

Not to mention the lobbyists and corporations desperate to get their hands on more of a very lucrative market.

You haven't declared any political affiliations. Also, simply being employed there, or living in Wales for part or all your life, doesn't necessarily give you greater insight than anyone else. My parents are 80 and have lived in North Wales all their lives but on its own that is meaningless. Each region is very different so, while I'm open to the possibility that the Assembly's decisions may be partly to blame, I doubt you know how each Trust and hospital is run. All the above mean that I have to take your statements as opinions rather than facts.

Health is completely devolved.

That means that the Welsh Health Minister (Vaughan Gething AM) makes the decisions regarding the Welsh NHS.

That's why we have different funding models, different junior doctor contracts, different targets etc etc.

The Welsh NHS budget has no direct link to the English NHS budget.

An increase in the English NHS budget will not automatically produce an increase in the Welsh NHS budget and vice versa.

The size of the Welsh NHS budget is decided by the Welsh Assembly Government (Labour).

Living here and taking an interest in politics and the NHS in particular means I understand how devolution actually works. I therefore understand who is ultimately responsible for the state of the Welsh NHS. Clue: It's not Jeremy Hunt.

Simon E wrote:

So an AM in Cardiff has the same powers as the Health Minister in London?

Yes, in their respective countries. Scotland's NHS is likewise devolved.

According to the Nuffield Trust, after adjusting for population age, Wales chooses to spend least on its NHS (although it's very close to England's levels).

Not sure how we got here but anyway, there you are.

OldMixte wrote:

maviczap wrote:

OldMixte wrote:

I'm not a Froome fan, when he wins he rarely mentions or thanks his team members 

You must have selective hearing or watching in an alternative universe, as Froome is one of the best for thanking his team mates during live interviews, Twitter and FB.

Always humble and grateful for their work

Perhaps you listen to different interviews, I saw the interview on the Giro on Quest, and it seemed to me it was all  me, me, me, so similar to the others I've heard.

But I say again it is wrong that he is racing unders suspicion they need to sort that out, his Giro winning ride was spectacular, so all credit to him for that.

Perhaps we should have a rule that you can only compete for the UK if you pay your taxes in the UK? That would help the NHS.

So you have watched part of one interview and ignore the fact that multiple other people have seen multiple other interviews and formed the opinion that he's very respectful and gracious.

It isn't wrong that he is racing whilst 'unders suspicion' (sic). It is wrong that the AAF was leaked, the rules are being followed. If you don't like the rules that is fine, not liking Froome beacuse of the rules is ridiculous!

alansmurphy wrote:

It isn't wrong that he is racing whilst 'unders suspicion' (sic). It is wrong that the AAF was leaked, the rules are being followed. If you don't like the rules that is fine, not liking Froome beacuse of the rules is ridiculous!

I'm afraid the Froomeophobes, self-appointed asthma experts and dedicated trolls don't care about facts. If the  comments on the telly about his own performance fit the narrative they have then that's all they will hear.

Thanks Rich_cb & Duncann for useful comments about NHS funding.

dreamlx10 wrote:

Maybe Road CC should change it's title to Froome Fan Boys CC

It would make for a stark contrast to all the blind hate on most forums and the particularly toxic stuff spewed on social media. But if you think we're fanboys then you'd be very much mistaken.

I always admired Hinault on the bike but he proved time and again, even as a young rider, to have an attitude and perspective shared by very few others (if any). The 1986 Tour was probably the most visible expression of that. His biography by Will Fotheringham is a good read.

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

5'8 and 62kg. What a beast. 

It's all very well beating selected crowd members and fellow cycling anorexics but I bet he never tried his hard man act on anyone built like a 100kg rugby player without 100 other cyclists about.

 

 

There's video of him taking on a crowd of protesting farmers who were getting in the way of a race....