Bernard Hinault: “Froome is not part of the legend of the sport"

don simon wrote:

Simply placing the blame of NHS underfunding at the feet of Labour, is both over simplistic and wrong. It has been demostrated as being complex and not solely a Labour problem.  It still hasn't been demonstrated by the wise one where which budget will supply the money to fix the Welsh NHS and that's always the problem with smart arse critics, they've got no fucking solutions.

Look at that twat Farage, for another one.

The trouble is that it is actually quite simple.

The NHS in Wales in underfunded by about 9.5% based on the English funding model mentioned in your link.

Based on the current budget of roughly £7bn that gives a shortfall of circa £650m.

Have Welsh Labour implemented any Wales-only policies that have used resources that could otherwise have been used to address that shortfall?

Yes.

I have already given you the example of subsidised tuition fees, there are also non means tested maintainance grants for students.

These policies alone cost £100's of millions per year. There are many more.

Welsh Labour have therefore made the choice to prioritise supporting university students over properly funding the NHS.

When the Welsh NHS underperforms Welsh Labour has to be held accountable for the choices they have made and the way that they have prioritised spending.

Instead they pretend that the blame lies entirely in Westminster.

don simon wrote:

Where does it say in that article that Labour are able to force the changes to funding? That's your argument; that Labour, as the welsh Gov, have the power to reasign funds from Education to the NHS. They don't and that means that you're wrong.

The answer is simple. they can't.

So unless you can do as I have asked and point to relevant passages that demonstrate your position, take your arrogance and shove it up your arse!

Did you read the entire link?

It's in the Governance section.

Are you seriously arguing that the Welsh Assembly Government doesn't set the budgets for Education and Healthcare in Wales?

don simon wrote:

So, you're saying that the Welsh Assembly Gov (appointed members) is the same as the National Assembly for Wales (elected members where Labour hold 29 out of 60 seats), then?

The Welsh Assembly Government is a very specific entity, so specific that there is legislation in place to ensure that people aren't confused, unfortunately some people still get confussed inspite of the Act being passed 12 years ago (2006).

As far as I'm aware Senedd is the fucking building... 

Your still failing to link to anything to support any of the crap that you're spouting.

EDIT!

I'm proper fucking bored of this now. OK, nice and simple for you richie baby.. Let's see if you can understand this.

In Wales the devolved Government probably looks something like an appointed Welsh Government made up of the First Minister and his cronies. Brenda/Queenie/Her Maj does the appointing.

These cronies include lots and lots of ministers who set out policies, including bugets like the NHS. If these appointed cronies were allowed to do what the fuck they wanted, we'd have a problem calling Wales a democracy.

 

So, in 2006, the National Assembly was separated legally from the Welsh Government. The budgets are passed to the National Assembly for approval and to make sure that no one is taking the piss like buying themselves expensive cars and that sort of shit.

This assembly is made up of 60 seats, 29 which are Labour. This is not an absolute majority so Labour (boo! hiss!) can not force legislation through without the support of non Labour AMs.

They sit in a building called the fucking Senedd.

It's there, it's simple, it's done. There is no possible way that you can be confused now.

This thread can now die the death it deserves.

You nade a shit statement that you could not support with evidence.

You have, again, refused to be corrected where evidence is available (go fucking Google it yourself).

You insist on digging holes for yourself.

You try and insult people with little sideswipes.

You're a waste of space.

Who the fuck is this Hinault fella? And what's he done?

 

I clearly did not say that.

The Welsh Assembly Government is created by the political party that can command a majority in the Senedd. The members are ceremonially appointed by the Queen but she plays no role in their selection.

As you have said there are 60 seats in the Senedd. The presiding officer does not traditionally vote so that leaves 30 seats required for a working majority.

At present Labour have 29 seats so have an agreement with the solitary Liberal Democrat AM to get their policies passed.

In the previous Assembly Labour commanded an overall majority of their own.

The First Minister, Finance Minister and Health Minister are all Labour AMs.

Given that it is a Labour Finance Minister who proposes the budget which is then supported by all the Labour AMs it does not seem unreasonable to blame Labour for budget decisions.

The underfunding of the Welsh NHS is not a new problem.

During the previous Assembly the Labour majority voted to cut NHS funding in real terms.

Again it does not seem unreasonable to blame the party that voted to cut NHS funding for the underfunding that this caused.

In summary the Welsh Assembly Government has the power to increase Welsh NHS funding but chooses not to.

The Labour party make up all but one post of the Welsh Assembly Government.

I therefore blame the Labour party for the current underfunding especially given their track record of cutting NHS spending in the previous Assembly.

Rich_cb wrote:

don simon wrote:

Simply placing the blame of NHS underfunding at the feet of Labour, is both over simplistic and wrong. It has been demostrated as being complex and not solely a Labour problem.  It still hasn't been demonstrated by the wise one where which budget will supply the money to fix the Welsh NHS and that's always the problem with smart arse critics, they've got no fucking solutions.

Look at that twat Farage, for another one.

The trouble is that it is actually quite simple. The NHS in Wales in underfunded by about 9.5% based on the English funding model mentioned in your link. Based on the current budget of roughly £7bn that gives a shortfall of circa £650m. Have Welsh Labour implemented any Wales-only policies that have used resources that could otherwise have been used to address that shortfall? Yes. I have already given you the example of subsidised tuition fees, there are also non means tested maintainance grants for students. These policies alone cost £100's of millions per year. There are many more. Welsh Labour have therefore made the choice to prioritise supporting university students over properly funding the NHS. When the Welsh NHS underperforms Welsh Labour has to be held accountable for the choices they have made and the way that they have prioritised spending. Instead they pretend that the blame lies entirely in Westminster.

You see the problem (for you) here is that, you have failed to convince me of anything. My viewpoint hasn't changed one bit. I think that as far as a discussion goes, there hasn't really been one, but as an argument to convince me that you are correct, simply because you are only in part correct, you have failed dramatically again.  Simply you are wrong.

As a postscript, I would, if I had any respect for you, thank you for your taking of my one sentence resume of your modus operandi and throwing it back at me. What is it they say about  immitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

Back to the Daily Mail for you sunshine.

Rich_cb wrote:

don simon wrote:

Where does it say in that article that Labour are able to force the changes to funding? That's your argument; that Labour, as the welsh Gov, have the power to reasign funds from Education to the NHS. They don't and that means that you're wrong.

The answer is simple. they can't.

So unless you can do as I have asked and point to relevant passages that demonstrate your position, take your arrogance and shove it up your arse!

Did you read the entire link? It's in the Governance section. Are you seriously arguing that the Welsh Assembly Government doesn't set the budgets for Education and Healthcare in Wales?

Yes, I am. In that you blame Labour. You have not demonstrated the process, you have not linked to it. You "Waded" into the discussion with an outlandish claim that you cannot support, it looks very much like you are trying to wrangle out of your initial claims.

Come back when you've got some evidence to support the following:

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago
3 likes  

 

You clearly don't live in Wales. We've had the glorious Labour party running our NHS for 20 years now.

 

For some reason it underperforms relative to the English NHS (run by evil Tories) on most objective measures.

Don't let that fact dissuade you from your ideological rant though.

That Labour is solely responsible for the poor management for the Welsh NHS and underfunding play NO part.

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

Ultimately the Welsh NHS is run by the Welsh Assembly Government. They decide how much of the budget to allocate to healthcare, they take responsibility for policy decisions etc.

Safe to say that you are happy to interchange Labour with Welsh assembly Government. What is the welsh assembly Gov? I've already asked for this, which you haven't done.

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

The Welsh Assembly Government could assign more money to the NHS, as the link acknowledges, they choose not to.

So the underfunding of the Welsh NHS is a political decision made by Welsh Labour. They choose to prioritise spending elsewhere.

Back to erroneously blaming Labour. (You really are confused, aren't you?

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

This is from your link:

"The devolved administrations receive a block grant to spend on devolved policy areas (including healthcare)."

Welsh healthcare spending is decided in Wales by the Welsh Assembly Government.

They could increase that spending without recieving a single extra penny from Westminster. They choose not too.

Back to being confused again. Is it the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Gov (I'm now convinced you don't know the difference between the Welsh Gov and the Assembly, nor what they do... But hey, keep banging on...

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

The Welsh NHS budget has no direct link to the English NHS budget.

I assume that this is in line with Barnett himself saying that the Barnett formula is shite. But it is still a funding formula that is used and england is the base for the calculation, otherwise no, there's no link...

You haven't demonstrated the make up of the welsh Gv, you haven't touched on the Welsh Assembly, or it's role. You haven't said how it's impossible for Labour to steamroller any policy, no matter how much it would like to. I'd target my ire at the two who have pushed the Labour minority into the majority, if I were you.

I'm getting bored of this now and really do have other things to do.

Do you really want me to continue? Or are you going to continue making an arse of yourself?

don simon wrote:

You see the problem (for you) here is that, you have failed to convince me of anything. My viewpoint hasn't changed one bit. I think that as far as a discussion goes, there hasn't really been one, but as an argument to convince me that you are correct, simply because you are only in part correct, you have failed dramatically again.  Simply you are wrong.

As a postscript, I would, if I had any respect for you, thank you for your taking of my one sentence resume of your modus operandi and throwing it back at me. What is it they say about  immitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

Back to the Daily Mail for you sunshine.

There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

The Welsh Assembly Government spend hundreds of millions subsidising Welsh students.

That is a fact. You cannot dispute that.

The Welsh Assembly Government could reassign the money currently used to subsidise students and use it to fund the Welsh NHS.

That is also a fact. You cannot dispute that either.

Those two facts form my entire argument.

You may not be convinced of it but that is a reflection of your own bias, nothing more.

don simon wrote:

Yes, I am. In that you blame Labour. You have not demonstrated the process, you have not linked to it. You "Waded" into the discussion with an outlandish claim that you cannot support, it looks very much like you are trying to wrangle out of your initial claims.

Come back when you've got some evidence to support the following:

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago
3 likes  

 

You clearly don't live in Wales. We've had the glorious Labour party running our NHS for 20 years now.

 

For some reason it underperforms relative to the English NHS (run by evil Tories) on most objective measures.

Don't let that fact dissuade you from your ideological rant though.

That Labour is solely responsible for the poor management for the Welsh NHS and underfunding play NO part.

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

Ultimately the Welsh NHS is run by the Welsh Assembly Government. They decide how much of the budget to allocate to healthcare, they take responsibility for policy decisions etc.

Safe to say that you are happy to interchange Labour with Welsh assembly Government. What is the welsh assembly Gov? I've already asked for this, which you haven't done.

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

The Welsh Assembly Government could assign more money to the NHS, as the link acknowledges, they choose not to.

So the underfunding of the Welsh NHS is a political decision made by Welsh Labour. They choose to prioritise spending elsewhere.

Back to erroneously blaming Labour. (You really are confused, aren't you?

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

This is from your link:

"The devolved administrations receive a block grant to spend on devolved policy areas (including healthcare)."

Welsh healthcare spending is decided in Wales by the Welsh Assembly Government.

They could increase that spending without recieving a single extra penny from Westminster. They choose not too.

Back to being confused again. Is it the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Gov (I'm now convinced you don't know the difference between the Welsh Gov and the Assembly, nor what they do... But hey, keep banging on...

Quote:

Rich_cb [745 posts] 4 days ago

The Welsh NHS budget has no direct link to the English NHS budget.

I assume that this is in line with Barnett himself saying that the Barnett formula is shite. But it is still a funding formula that is used and england is the base for the calculation, otherwise no, there's no link...

You haven't demonstrated the make up of the welsh Gv, you haven't touched on the Welsh Assembly, or it's role. You haven't said how it's impossible for Labour to steamroller any policy, no matter how much it would like to. I'd target my ire at the two who have pushed the Labour minority into the majority, if I were you.

I'm getting bored of this now and really do have other things to do.

Do you really want me to continue? Or are you going to continue making an arse of yourself?

 

 

I think it is you that is confused.

The Welsh Assembly Government is the devolved government of Wales. It is commonly referred to as 'The Welsh Assembly'.

Labour are currently in power so using 'Labour' and the 'Welsh Assembly Government' interchangeably is perfectly acceptable.

Labour are able to pass budgets as they command a majority in the Senedd (The Welsh Parliament).

The Barnett formula determines the size of the block grant to Wales. It does not determine the size of the Welsh Healthcare budget.

That is determined by the Welsh Assembly Government which is currently run by Welsh Labour.

Welsh Labour could therefore increase funding to the Welsh NHS.

They choose not too.

Rich_cb wrote:

don simon wrote:

You see the problem (for you) here is that, you have failed to convince me of anything. My viewpoint hasn't changed one bit. I think that as far as a discussion goes, there hasn't really been one, but as an argument to convince me that you are correct, simply because you are only in part correct, you have failed dramatically again.  Simply you are wrong.

As a postscript, I would, if I had any respect for you, thank you for your taking of my one sentence resume of your modus operandi and throwing it back at me. What is it they say about  immitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

Back to the Daily Mail for you sunshine.

There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. The Welsh Assembly Government spend hundreds of millions subsidising Welsh students. That is a fact. You cannot dispute that. The Welsh Assembly Government could reassign the money currently used to subsidise students and use it to fund the Welsh NHS. That is also a fact. You cannot dispute that either. Those two facts form my entire argument. You may not be convinced of it but that is a reflection of your own bias, nothing more.

That's quite bold and arrogant, so guess what? I'm simply going to say that you're wrong.

What you can do is go into a bit more detail about the Welsh Government and the funding process. Don't need the Barnett Formula, you can start with the First Minister and how they get that position and take it right down to the make up of the Assembly and what they do. You can then explain how Labour are able to reassign funds, as you say, which is your entire argument.

I can't be arse linking, but you can. Otherwise I'm more than happy to sit here saying that, as usual, you are wrong.

don simon wrote:

That's quite bold and arrogant, so guess what? I'm simply going to say that you're wrong.

What you can do is go into a bit more detail about the Welsh Government and the funding process. Don't need the Barnett Formula, you can start with the First Minister and how they get that position and take it right down to the make up of the Assembly and what they do. You can then explain how Labour are able to reassign funds, as you say, which is your entire argument.

I can't be arse linking, but you can. Otherwise I'm more than happy to sit here saying that, as usual, you are wrong.

It's not arrogant to state a fact.

It's arrogant to wade into a debate you clearly know absolutely nothing about and start declaring that established facts are wrong.

Here is a link which sets out in some detail the role of the Welsh Assembly. Have a read. You might just learn something.

http://www.assembly.wales/en/abthome/role-of-assembly-how-it-works/Pages...

Rich_cb wrote:

The trouble is that it is actually quite simple.

The NHS in Wales in underfunded by about 9.5% based on the English funding model mentioned in your link.

Based on the current budget of roughly £7bn that gives a shortfall of circa £650m.

Have Welsh Labour implemented any Wales-only policies that have used resources that could otherwise have been used to address that shortfall?

Yes.

I have already given you the example of subsidised tuition fees, there are also non means tested maintainance grants for students.

These policies alone cost £100's of millions per year. There are many more.

Welsh Labour have therefore made the choice to prioritise supporting university students over properly funding the NHS.

When the Welsh NHS underperforms Welsh Labour has to be held accountable for the choices they have made and the way that they have prioritised spending.

Instead they pretend that the blame lies entirely in Westminster.

Very interesting, thanks.

Is it really that subsidised tuition fees and non means-tested grants have taken money away from NHS funding? Is it such a direct relationship? After all, there are other things in the Assembly's remit.

Rhetorical question: if NHS Wales had that additional money how would it be used?

Also, it prompts me to wonder whether the case for subsidising students is because it brings other benefits to the economy of university towns and cities.

Simon E wrote:

Very interesting, thanks.

Is it really that subsidised tuition fees and non means-tested grants have taken money away from NHS funding? Is it such a direct relationship? After all, there are other things in the Assembly's remit.

Rhetorical question: if NHS Wales had that additional money how would it be used?

Also, it prompts me to wonder whether the case for subsidising students is because it brings other benefits to the economy of university towns and cities.

The vast majority of the Welsh Assembly's funding comes in the form of a block grant from Westminster.

How that block grant is divided is entirely down to the Welsh Assembly Government.

Education and Health/Social Care are the two largest components of the budget.

Every penny spent on education is therefore not available to be spent on health and vice versa.

There are undoubtedly benefits to the tuition fees policy but there are also detrimental effects for other areas.

If Welsh Labour acknowledged that the Welsh NHS is underfunded but made the argument that students were a higher priority I'd at least respect their honesty.

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Rich_cb is 100% correct regarding NHS comments, why people are arguing with him to the contrary is both unhelpful and stupid as it deflects from the topic matter. He doesn't need any graphs because he was correct in his first post about the NHS and every post thereafter.

The same thing happens in Scotland, they spend a heck of a lot more per person than the NHS average and yet the Scots are the unhealthiest of the home nations by far not to mention their bad teeth! Life expectancy of those under the SNP is around 3 years shorter, that's a very significant number and yet more money is spent by NHS Scotland under both SNP and SLP and still hasn't improved matters in almost 20 years, it continues to get worse comparatively.

it's all too easy for the lefties on here to blame the cons but ignore the truth/reality and stick their fingers in their ears just as many have done here chatting shit to rich_cb..

it's because of Burke & Hare. The SNP are stooges of the Romanian Vampyrical McLabour Party and Body Shop and go around the wee granitey streets of auld Scotland killing people and eating their babies with boiled neeps, and that's why the numbers don't add up.

I can guarantee you Jimmy that the day after a Tory win in Scotland all the dead will rise again from their cold graves, aye including Greyfriars Bobby's owner, and they will once again walk this earth for all eternity so the life (if you can really call it that) expectancy figures will put England to shame and there'll be nay mair need for an NHS and we can spend the money on border posts instead. Och aye. Vote Tory and live forever. 

CygnusX1 wrote:

80 posts on a thread where Rich_cb is resposible for about a third of them and still no graphs??? Surely there's a correlation between Team Sky results and waiting times in the Welsh NHS?

Oh come on.. I'm more surprised we've not brought helmets into this by now, what with all those Welshies getting free perscriptions for paracetamol based on 1) the lunacy of welsh car drivers 2) the queues in A&E for people falling off bikes and banging their heads ! 

Here's a pie chart which demonstrates my argument perfectly! - https://goo.gl/images/TYS5Ui

Duncann wrote:

I modestly propose that my own mature and magnanimous approach of letting things go immediately after having had the last word should be adopted by everyone?

But what if someone else gets the last word in?

hawkinspeter wrote:

Duncann wrote:

I modestly propose that my own mature and magnanimous approach of letting things go immediately after having had the last word should be adopted by everyone?

But what if someone else gets the last word in?

I undermined the joke by not expressing it very well. I should have written "after I have had the last word" - the point being that if others follow my example then it never ends.

It amused me at the time...