Horrific hit and run on Swain's Lane – North London's favourite road for hill reps (+ link to video)

madcarew wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

nniff wrote:

Being realistic, it's not unreasonable for the Met to ask if there is any CCTV - without it, there is no case unless there was a witness with accurate details.

No, it should be the job of the police to check if there are any CCTV cameras covering the area. I wouldn't want CCTV footage to just be handed out to anyone who asks (though it is covering a public area) which is why it should be the police requesting the footage for the purpose of law enforcement.

And the police have asked for the cctv evidence to be made available to them, by the most propitious avenue available. To demand it otherwise (as pointed out elsewhere) requires a court order or search warrant.

That doesn't match up with my experiences - maybe for the police to "demand" footage they may require a court order, but they are certainly within their rights to make enquiries and request access to footage.

Just to clarify - my own interactions with police have generally been positive and I don't subscribe to tarring them all with the same brush. Anecdotally, it does appear that the MET are letting themselves down (maybe they do stirling work in other areas - I don't know).

hawkinspeter wrote:

@madcarew - I don't think your reaction is at all proportionate. The facts are that the police in this case are being useless and failing to do their job as we (the public) sees it and so maybe some verbal abuse is justified if it'll get them off their arses.

How has calling an entire tribe "useless cunts" ever helped to mend the behaviour of the few? 
Ever? It's as ineffectual as it is bigotted, stupid, and base.  Really, we want the police on our side. How does that kind of response advance (our) cause one iota? It's destructive, not constructive. It's unhelpful. It's peurile.

My response was to say that most police, like most cyclists, are good decent people, with a few pithy examples. 

I agree that it seems weird that the police have asked the man to get his own  CCTVcoverage. 
However, one has to ask the basic question how has this private citizen got their hands on CCTV footage? Has he told the police the source, is that source available to the police? The police can't just demand CCTV coverage off someone. They need a search warrant or court order, which may involve a backlog of days or weeks. It may just be far simpler  and quicker for the man to provide it himself. Back to that resources thing. Before those basic questions are resolved, it's barely fair to blame the police. And before resolving those questions "we, the public, as we see it" are in no position to pass judgement on their efficacy. How much help can we expect from them in the future by jumping to judgement and hurling invective before seeing it from the other side.

People like legs-eleven, BTBS and here Halliwell cast invective at an entire group based on nothing stronger than their own meagre (both BTBS and Halliwell have stated their opinion is largely based on one disappointing interaction for both of them) experience, most of that group who spend most of their time protecting and helping the weakest and most disadvantaged of us (Dont' believe me? go out on a few evenings with the cops and see their work on the street).

It is no better, or different, than saying "all cyclists are blind useless arrogant cunts" because some of the ones you see run red lights. Ye who is without sin and all that. I would direct the same ire and invective at anyone who would say the same of cyclists. It's inappropriate, and ultimately, foolish.

Halliwell wrote:

Madcarew... you Sir, are an idiot.

They are useless cunts, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. Just because they pick up drunks etc as you so put it from the town centre of an evening does not make them heroes.

You just have to look at recent history, with the mis-handling of evidence in court cases/poor methods of evidence gathering/low conviction rates/lack of local knowledge to see my point.

I have come to need them once before after being involved in an altercation. With my hand and face injured, 3 people pointing out the cretin who run me over, clear number plate on video and security cam footage from 2 shops, they still couldn't convict.

I imagine you are probably a copper, judging  by your diatribe?

Hopeless.

I stand by my point.

 

And I offered the probability that you are  a decent human being. Perhaps in assessing my idiocy we have common ground on my character judgement?

I am a builder, not a policeman.  

You tar them all with the same brush having come to need them once. Well done. 

You are of course aware that it is not the job of the police to convict? Clearly you are, otherwise you would be deluded. And probably an idiot.

Your point is based on evidence as robust as that of any flat earther. Really, it needs sharpening.

As I pointed out in my 'diatribe' all professions have their idiots (even yours, and apparently mine) however, we'd not all like to be judged on the actions of those few members of our profession who aren't the sharpest tack, would we.

Let me be perfectly clear, I don't wish rape or violence on any member of your family or anyone else. I do hope that one day you get another personal occasion to re-assess the capabilities of the police. 

Halliwell wrote:

Madcarew... you Sir, are an idiot.

They are useless cunts, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Is this from first hand experience with every force in the UK?

Does it include the truly magnificent West Midlands roads team, whose work has positively influenced the attitude towards vulnerable road users in virtually every force in the country (and just about everyone they've come into contact with)?

madcarew has a very valid argument. It applies to every single occupation and group, whether police officers, Muslims, cyclists, BMW drivers...

Tarring all of a group with the same brush because of the (in)action of a tiny minority on one occasion is the kind of knuckle-dragging, lazy, ignorant, shit-stirring bollocks that does not belong in a vaguely intelligent conversation between adults. Contributions like the ones you've posted so far on this topic are tantamount to abuse, they derail any debate and are poison for internet discourse in general.

Perhaps you should try doing work experience scraping up the remains road crash victims and informing their relatives, dealing with violent drug dealers or some other easy-peasy part of their overpaid, glamorous lifestyle.

madcarew wrote:

Really, I hope one day your child is abducted, your daughter raped, your elderly  mother's home burgled or you are simply mugged in a back alley. And then you have the basic human decency<snip>

...to hope that someone gets raped because their father is of the opinion that the police are largely useless?

srchar wrote:

madcarew wrote:

Really, I hope one day your child is abducted, your daughter raped, your elderly  mother's home burgled or you are simply mugged in a back alley. And then you have the basic human decency<snip>

...to hope that someone gets raped because their father is of the opinion that the police are largely useless?

I gave him a range of opportunities to require the help of the police, all of which I have first or second hand experience of.  And every time the police have responded they have been awesome. Not one of them was a useless cunt. So, you can single that example out, or take the  (rather coarsely and clumsily put) point that there is a whole range of roles the police fill, anyone of which he might require at any time and which he might hope would take precedence over a pretzeled wheel, or an 'altercation' one friday night. 

To be utterly clear, I don't wish rape on anyone (nor child abduction or any other violence). 

Oops.

madcarew wrote:

Well, Halliwell, I hope one day you have need of the police and they tell you to fuck off because you called them useless cunts. 

Not all policemen and policewomen are evil, twisted c**ts.  

Just most of them.

The good ones are a minority, and that minority is prevented from doing any good through political decisions. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/02/police-officer-lon...

The rot in the police - just as in almost every single other sphere of British society - started in 1979, when the language of 'the market' started to be applied to a service the role of which was to protect lives and property.  

madcarew wrote:

Well, Halliwell, I hope one day you have need of the police and they tell you to fuck off because you called them useless cunts. Every professions has its wankers, skivers and dodgers. Even the one you're in. I've met surgeons who are absolute arseholes, pilots who are complete philandering wankers, digger drivers who are so bereft of humanity they shouldn't draw oxygen on the same planet as  my children. However, most surgeons, pilots, police and digger drivers are really good people, just like you probably are. However, in your job you probably don't, every friday, saturday and sunday night, take time away from your family to drag back to theirs, mewling puking abusive sons-of-bitches who threaten you and your family, spit on you,bite, kick and scratch you and call you the most foul abuse available. 

In spite of BTBS experiences (his wheel was buckled and handlebar tape was torn, but he expects plod to drop all they are doing and seek out whatever reprobate so inconvenienced him; ignoring the plight of the assaulted, raped, murdered, terminally and mentally ill, and  the lonely, lost and lovelorn, so they can chase down someone who he admits didn'treally do much damage) most police (my friends, family members and members of my community) who have turned out and assisted when I have been assaulted, reported an abducted child, reported car crashes or other problems, have largely been helpful, empathetic, decent and done the best they can with the resources they have available.  I can speak of experience of UK and NZ police.

Really, I hope one day your child is abducted, your daughter raped, your elderly  mother's home burgled or you are simply mugged in a back alley. And then you have the basic human decency, when you inevitably call them, to thank the decent, kind human beings who come to assist you and apologise sincerely to their face for calling them useless cunts. Because to do any less would mean you're a useless, two faced, bigotted prick, who quite frankly isn't worth their time.

Drivers, cyclists, police, politicians. They're all human beings who, by and large are as decent as you and I, and who have chosen and engage in their activity with the best of intent, but find themselves, on occasion, hamstrung by rules, regulations, and priorities that may not conveniently coincide with yours.

I've never been tempted to report someone to the administrators before, but your persistent and unjustified use of inappropriate language and frankly disgusting hopes are making me think seriously about it.  You might use language and scenarios like that in your job, but there is no excuse for them here.

squidgy wrote:

Hard to tell but possibly deliberate.

How do you accidentally drive so much over the speed limit and on the wrong side of the road?  In what way could it possibly not be 'deliberate'?

StuInNorway wrote:

If it's on fake plates (likely if the Police can't find out who it was) then hopefully whoever repaired it for the damage remembers it and reports the driver/owner. The marks left by that type of incident are quite distinctive.

Using the DVLA website, the car shows up as taxed and MOTd. It is registered as the same black BMW convertible model as in the video. That said, it could have been a cloned car. But with the police knowing the reg no, it should take them seconds to locate the registered vehicle. A quick examination of it would reveal any damage, or any recent repairs too. The driver would be fairly easy to identify using the video.

I know the police are pushed to the limit due to cuts, but this is not a complex case to follow up. Quite the reverse in fact.

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Should we call the police and report the number plate on the CCTV to them as well? As it seems they needed him to get his own footage and now wants extra details when it is very clear the car and the description.

Although of course having number plates don't mean much unless they happen to be on a cyclist.  

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Don't know - but this is the second time in a week that I have heard that the victim of a accident had to go find the CCTV footage themselves because the police couldn't be arsed to do their job.... a bit like the 4kers I see parked up eating mcdonalds and donuts in the countryside on my work commute - apparantly its always lunchtime in the policeforce nowadays.

leqin wrote:

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Don't know - but this is the second time in a week that I have heard that the victim of a accident had to go find the CCTV footage themselves because the police couldn't be arsed to do their job.... a bit like the 4kers I see parked up eating mcdonalds and donuts in the countryside on my work commute - apparantly its always lunchtime in the policeforce nowadays.

Happened to me some years back here in Hertfordshire. Hit and run, nobody apparantly who stopped got the reg. I suggested to police that he could only have gone down x or y road which has lots of buisnesses and CCTV cameras plus feeding back onto the main industrial road which has even more.

All they were bothered about was asking if I had a different coloured jack despite the reflective strips, my lights and the fact the roundabout was extremely well lit. They couldn't even get my address correct despite me telling the officer who turned up, I had to ring back twice to remind the officer to sort their shit out and actually investigate. ATEOTD absolutely nothing. Pathetic.

Luckily for me I only had a minor scrpae and a pringled rear wheel but culd so easily have been worse, it's hardly any surprise the confidence and respect in police is at an all time low!

leqin wrote:

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Don't know - but this is the second time in a week that I have heard that the victim of a accident had to go find the CCTV footage themselves because the police couldn't be arsed to do their job.... a bit like the 4kers I see parked up eating mcdonalds and donuts in the countryside on my work commute - apparantly its always lunchtime in the policeforce nowadays.

What was 'accidental' about that driving? Dangerous definitely, reckless maybe, murderous perhaps, but there's nothing accidental about driving on the wrong side of the road at high speed in two tonnes of steel and glass.

jh27 wrote:

leqin wrote:

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Don't know - but this is the second time in a week that I have heard that the victim of a accident had to go find the CCTV footage themselves because the police couldn't be arsed to do their job.... a bit like the 4kers I see parked up eating mcdonalds and donuts in the countryside on my work commute - apparantly its always lunchtime in the policeforce nowadays.

 

What was 'accidental' about that driving? Dangerous definitely, reckless maybe, murderous perhaps, but there's nothing accidental about driving on the wrong side of the road at high speed in two tonnes of steel and glass.

The answer is that we suppose that the driver did not deliberately set out with intent to mow down the cyclist. However outraged we might be by what did happen, we must reserve some further margin for the case where the action is deliberate. If that does prove to be the case then the crime is all the more serious and deserving even greater sentence.

Sriracha wrote:

jh27 wrote:

leqin wrote:

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Don't know - but this is the second time in a week that I have heard that the victim of a accident had to go find the CCTV footage themselves because the police couldn't be arsed to do their job.... a bit like the 4kers I see parked up eating mcdonalds and donuts in the countryside on my work commute - apparantly its always lunchtime in the policeforce nowadays.

 

What was 'accidental' about that driving? Dangerous definitely, reckless maybe, murderous perhaps, but there's nothing accidental about driving on the wrong side of the road at high speed in two tonnes of steel and glass.

The answer is that we suppose that the driver did not deliberately set out with intent to mow down the cyclist. However outraged we might be by what did happen, we must reserve some further margin for the case where the action is deliberate. If that does prove to be the case then the crime is all the more serious and deserving even greater sentence.

Arguably, the driver did deliberately set out to cause injury to someone by driving with reckless abandon. They may not have been targetting a specific person, but I would consider it a deliberate attack.

You could draw a parallel with terrorists using a vehicle to drive into a crowd of people - no specific target intended, but still a deliberate attack.

Sriracha wrote:

jh27 wrote:

leqin wrote:

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

Don't know - but this is the second time in a week that I have heard that the victim of a accident had to go find the CCTV footage themselves because the police couldn't be arsed to do their job.... a bit like the 4kers I see parked up eating mcdonalds and donuts in the countryside on my work commute - apparantly its always lunchtime in the policeforce nowadays.

 

What was 'accidental' about that driving? Dangerous definitely, reckless maybe, murderous perhaps, but there's nothing accidental about driving on the wrong side of the road at high speed in two tonnes of steel and glass.

The answer is that we suppose that the driver did not deliberately set out with intent to mow down the cyclist. However outraged we might be by what did happen, we must reserve some further margin for the case where the action is deliberate. If that does prove to be the case then the crime is all the more serious and deserving even greater sentence.

As I said on the other thread - that 'margin' is a very small one, small-to- non-existent.  Putting too much emphasis on it just enables the socially-and-politically powerful to get away with things the less powerful can't.  Because the former can commit serious harm without having to put the same level of mental effort into it that the latter have to.

  In the end I don't know I care that much about the details of what thoughts someone has in their heads at the time when they commit a harmful act.

Butty wrote:

What's the story behind the police asking him to get hold of CCTV coverage?

Are they too busy or something?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-48066573

The Met can't be arsed acting for (broadly) similar reasons that they couldn't be arsed investigating the murder of Stephen Lawrence.

They were (and are) institutionally racist and they are institutionally anti-cycling.