Yesterday we brought you news of a Parliament petition that's nearing 2,000 signatures and asks the government to introduce presumed liability for civil cases from road traffic collisions. In short, that would mean in the case of a collision the less vulnerable party would be presumed liable unless they can prove otherwise.
So, drivers would be presumed liable for collisions with cyclists, pedestrians or horse riders and, also we should point out, cyclists presumed liable for collisions with pedestrians — not that that has put anyone here off, based on a quick look in the comments.
> Petition asks government for drivers to be "presumed liable" for cyclist collisions
Here are some of the replies we got on social media where we asked if it was a good idea:
"Yes. And *LONG* overdue."
"If it helps to make cycling on the roads safer I'm all for it. Hopefully make drivers more aware that there are others on the road who are vulnerable."
"Yes. With my cycle hat on. Yes! As someone who tries to always be a good driver, also yes!"
And some more from the road.cc comments:
Spangly Shiny: "The recent changes to the wording in the Highway Code, specifically outlining the Hierarchy of road users was an excellent first step. Now it requires the obvious follow-up legislation to enforce that hierarchy so that four-wheel Frannie gets to understand his/her place in the order of things trafficky. This from someone who drives around 20-fold as much as I ride."
chrisonabike: "I mean, it's a detail of a detail (if you need this, the bad thing has already happened, AND it doesn't help e.g. stop the driver driving - it's nothing to do with the criminal side) ... but it's something in the right direction."
John G: "Petition signed, letter also emailed to my MP."
C3a: "I agree. Off to sign."
Others rightly pointed out the bit included in the original article explaining how presumed liability is already a thing across Europe, and works effectively. The vast majority of negative replies on a certain social media site either failed to grasp this is in civil proceedings, not criminal; and that, yes, almost all cyclists are absolutely fine (and aware it also means) bicycle riders being presumed liable for collisions with pedestrians.
Any more thoughts on presumed liability? We might be preaching to the choir here, but would you like to see it implemented in the UK?
The petition will run until 18 May and if it reaches 10,000 signatures it will receive a response from the government. If it receives 100,000 signatures it will be considered for a debate in Parliament.
Add new comment
18 comments
I thought the TDF Unchained was very well done actually. A lot more interesting frankly than much of the actual race.
I fear for pro-cycling generally when even the TDF moves to expensive streaming platforms. Sponsors will get even less ROI and funding will dry up.
Sustrans being awareded £30 million isn't the god news it might seem, given their propensity to declare any old rubbish as part of the Notional Cycling Network. Including a sandy beach accessible only at low tide.
I hope that any cycling routes that are created are usable in all weathers by all kinds of cyclist on all kinds of bikes, and that they are direct routes between places people want to go.
Apparently they're better now...
Like the government and authorities they're trying to "align" with the pressure to avoid mentioning the "C" word - or indeed doing things which particularly align with the needs of cyclists - appears strong. So it's "Active Travel" - and I'm surprised it's not been renamed the "walking, wheeling and (shh) cycling network". It's certainly pushed as "recreational" which seems to be what we've ended up with in many places.
That's not taking away from the incredible efforts of volunteers who essentially set up a parallel "department for transport" and built / bought / negotiated a country-wide collection of infra (read more in Laura Laker's book).
I have ridden bits of their routes on my commutes for many years, mainly the 5, Birmingham and Reading. Longer bits for recreation. They get my money every month.
As with all commuting and travel routes, you try, and if it's not right you seek alternatives. And hope that you end up with the best compromise.
Oh, I use them all the time - indeed part of the reason I'm living where I am is it's basically right by an off-road "almost-network". And almost always "good enough"; if ... you don't mind dog walkers, unhappy pedestrians, the glass, football and rugby crowds on foot. And the occasional thugs, motorbikes - oh and sexual predators...
If they hadn't built some parts (volunteer / charity effort! Often it seems in spite of LA / government) which "somehow work" (for this lifetime cycler), I wouldn't bemoan the bits which really look like "national sign-off network" or "national sign network".
There's just enough - in some places - so you do start wondering "hey - why do we need to spend time with maps / talking to people to find usable alternatives, or seeking an acceptable compromise? I don't do that when I'm driving - and rarely when walking in urban areas..."
Especially when you realise other places have an urban network (just like for pedestrians / drivers) AND "intercity routes" AND also a country-wide "recreational network" like this [1] [2], AND even greener or more "recreational trails" like this [3] [4] [5]...
My point is the counterfactual - what would we have got if Sustrans weren't so eager to sign off any kind of rubbish? The argument of their defenders is that we wouldn't have anything. The counterpoint would be that there might be more pressure on government at all levels to build something that actually works.
It's like painted cycle lanes on road - we know from proper scientific studies that they actually increase danger to cyclists, so that they are worse than nothing. And indeed, if the budget/political will had been instead applied to creating proper segregated facilities, then we would end up with a proper cycling network!
Accepting low standards just allows decision-makers to claim they are doing something, whilst not actually delivering anything.
Well - like most counterfactuals we'll never know. But I guess you could estimate this by looking at how much "sufficiently good" infra the government and councils built before. I'd say that would amount to ... not much.
It's not quite "nothing" because the UK does seem to go round in cycles. So every decade or so (or is it quarter century?) someone sits up and says "this cycling thing? It seems to have a lot of benefits we'd really like, and it's cheap - do you thing it could ... work?" And stuff gets funded, trials and studies are done... but because "trial" and "in addition to driving, not instead of some driven trips" modal share for cycling only increases to a percent or so, not e.g. 5 - 10% or more. And then events come along and/or the politicians have been there for a bit and become unpopular. And it all gets ditched.
That's a massive "if" there... where would this political will have come from and how (and if it could have ... why didn't it)?
Completely agree ... but the problem with cycling is that the people who need to approve / demand "good enough" * are not the cyclists of today **. Which is a problem, because a) they don't know what good cycling facilities are b) they likely don't understand how convenient and pleasant it could be c) many don't care about cycling and indeed won't be "enthusiasts" even if they become part of "mass cycling" and do cycle themselves d) they have lives they've already built around driving / walking and providing for cycling may mean some change for them.
I have also been scathing about Sustrans back in the past. Having seen just how little support for "doing it at all" never mind "doing it right" there is though I am less certain how it could have been different. (Reading the history in Laura Laker's book was interesting also). Of course, if the government - or maybe even one council or one city/town - had decided to go in a different direction and been able to change quickly enough AND weather the criticism over time ... [1] [2]
* e.g. a safe and convenient cycling network of continuous cycle routes, separated from motor traffic where needed (by distance it's more about "slowing down and reducing motor traffic volumes" and decreasing "permeability" for it), with good social safety and secure parking, which facilitates social cycling e.g. is wide enough for side-by-side.
** To a first approximation we're outliers; the fit and the brave, "enthusiasts", sportspeople ... and/or have less social status e.g. the really poor, those who can't drive - including banned drivers, the young, those with certain disabilities ...
You keep using this photo. Am I the only person who looks at it and thinks, "She's wearing a thick coat and fur boots, but left her legs uncovered? She must be freezing!" ?
Also, I'm not sure of the ethics of photographing young women cycling without their knowledge/permission.
I'm more concerned about the lady in the second, also frequently-used photograph, with her handbag apparently dangling from the bars and just asking to get caught in the brakes or spokes.
Strict Liability Law - 20 years ago I did not support this, because there are careless/negligent/incompetent cyclists too.
Today there is no reason not to implement this. The abundance of Dashcam offerings and at low cost, mean every driver now has the opportunity to provide evidence they were not at fault.
The only question I have, will Strict Liability be applied in the incidents of Cyclist v Pedestrian collisions?
There are, and see the response to your question below. However, note that in cyclists v pedestrians, the cyclist has not brought 2 tonnes to the scene of the crash at up to 70mph (or perhaps even more). Even where the more vulnerable party may be at fault - either partly or wholly - for the cause of the collision, they are not the cause of the scale of the damage or injury caused.
It is entirely reasonable to presume that the person who brings the most kinetic energy with them carries greater responsibility for anticipating the presence and actions of others around them.
According to the wording of the petition, yes.
Exactly
Just as long as everyone remembers a) this has no bearing on criminal court matters, only civil ones *. b) This is about recompense after the fact and is not likely to do much if anything for "safety" [1] [2] [3] (again - civil compensation).
It's still a good idea though! e.g. if people survive it should make it a bit easier to get help to pay for their care. Of course this relies on not being in Scotland, where - if pushed - the police might assist by asking the driver if they remembered this happening, and going away when the driver said "no".
* In theory I guess it could but that is highly unlikely to happen. It would be a radical innovation; I'm not aware of that being the case anywhere else.
"ruin the wax on a molecular level"
Sigh. The wax will melt, and solidify again afterwards. That's all there is to it.
I do my hot waxing in an old electric fondue pan, works just fine.
Melt the wax, turn the temperature down a notch, put in the chain, let it sit for a minute or so, stir it a bit, take it out and turn off the heat. That's it.
Mmmm, fondue… I can't get out of my head this image of your wax bubbling away while you dip components into it on a fork…![](/sites/all/themes/rcc/images/smilies/3.gif)
Indeed, best not to tell them about the temperatures and pressures involved in refining crude oil to produce the wax...
When I wax my chain I always get the electron microscope out and examine the wax molecules individually, just to be sure.
No, it's an atomic force microscope you need